Rasheed Wallace

[Findog]

And neither does Turkoglu.

Turkoglu is way more team-oriented than Carter is or ever will be. I guarantee you Hedo cares about winning and has never called out his own team's plays to the opposing bench:

http://www.cbc.ca/sports/story/2004/...tip041219.html

[Findog]

And got Ryan Anderson. IMO, Van Gundy should be starting Howard, Anderson, Lewis, Carter, Nelson (when healthy). The whole point of trading Turk was so Lewis could move down to the 3 and they wouldn't be undersized at 4. As much as I think that trade helped them, I really don't see the point of it with the lineups Van Gundy is using.

See, I think they got to the Finals by having an unconventional lineup that caused mismatches. I liked Lewis at the 4, and the way they spread the floor with their 3-point shooters, they kind of reminded me of the SSOL Suns a little bit, only if they played defense too.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Turkoglu is way more team-oriented than Carter is or ever will be. I guarantee you Hedo cares about winning and has never called out his own team's plays to the opposing bench:

I guarantee you Vince Carter would have still found a way to be productive with Ariza guarding him in the finals.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

See, I think they got to the Finals by having an unconventional lineup that caused mismatches. I liked Lewis at the 4, and the way they spread the floor with their 3-point shooters, they kind of reminded me of the SSOL Suns a little bit, only if they played defense too.

Ryan Anderson at the 4 and Lewis at the 3 gives them that same spacing. Also, remember that Turkoglu and Nelson had major problems playing with each other. Vince has a proven ability to co-exist with PG's.

[Findog]

I guarantee you Vince Carter would have still found a way to be productive with Ariza guarding him in the finals.

That assumes that Vince Carter gives a . I don't want to have to rely on Vince Carter as an important cog in a playoff run.

[Darrin]

Carter is the better individual player, but they essentially gave up Lee as well. And it's not always about the better talent, it's the better fit.

Case in point: The Pistons came awfully, awfully close to winning the le in 87 and 88. Two wrenching playoff exits when they could've easily come out on top. The chemistry was off in 89 for reasons that had nothing to do with talent: Rodman was a versatile defender who had earned more playing time, and Adrian Dantley resented it. They traded him to the Mavs for Aguirre. Now maybe at that point in their careers Dantley was a better player than Aguirre, but Aguirre was no slouch himself and was a childhood pal of Isiah's who would make no trouble. It was a people trade, not a basketball trade, and without it they probably don't win a championship that year.

I've just never been impressed with Vince Carter. Every NBA player will tell you he has, or had in his prime, just as much talent and skill as LeBron, Kobe and Wade, and he's never come close to anything they've done. Never gotten past the second round, and I'd have to check basketball reference, but I don't think he's even been on a 50-win team, whereas of those other guys, they all have at least a Finals appearance. He just doesn't have *it*, whatever that is.

He played on the 49-33 New Jersey Nets in 2006.

[Findog]

Ryan Anderson at the 4 and Lewis at the 3 gives them that same spacing. Also, remember that Turkoglu and Nelson had major problems playing with each other

What problems are those?

Vince has a proven ability to co-exist with PG's.

He also has a proven ability to quarter-ass it and mail it in.

[Findog]

He played on the 49-33 New Jersey Nets in 2006.

That's the best regular-season record he's been a part of? How did this guy get respect as a "superstar" for so long? Superstar talent? Yes. Superstar Results? No.

[Findog]

I'm a huge North Carolina Tarheels fan, but we don't claim Vince. him. He's the an hesis of everything Dean Smith is supposed to be about.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

What problems are those?

I remember him playing horribly before Nelson's injury last year. He started playing well when Nelson went down and he became the main ball handler.

[Darrin]

That's the best regular-season record he's been a part of? How did this guy get respect as a "superstar" for so long? Superstar talent? Yes. Superstar Results? No.

I'm a bit of a Carter fan. I think he was that good, but the knee injuries robbed him of a career, the same way it's robbed Penny, Grant Hill, and T-Mac from All-NBA careers. The man dropped 50 on the league's best defense, the 2000-01 Philadelphia 76ers. They took a 2-1 series lead and were that close to the Conference Finals. Remember, Dominique, a Hall-of-Famer, never played in the Conference Finals, either.

[Findog]

I remember him playing horribly before Nelson's injury last year. He started playing well when Nelson went down and he became the main ball handler.

I suspect correlation and causation. I'd have to see what his shooting %s were with and without Nelson. I'd still rather have him and Lee on my team instead of relying on a dog like Carter. Guys like Carter just can't be trusted.

[Findog]

I'm a bit of a Carter fan. I think he was that good, but the knee injuries robbed him of a career, the same way it's robbed Penny, Grant Hill, and T-Mac from All-NBA careers. The man dropped 50 on the league's best defense, the 2000-01 Philadelphia 76ers. They took a 2-1 series lead and were that close to the Conference Finals. Remember, Dominique, a Hall-of-Famer, never played in the Conference Finals, either.

I think Carter talent-wise at his height was as good as Kobe, Bron and Wade, but aside from the injuries, he basically sabotaged his team to get out of Toronto, and wore out his welcome in New Jersey too. Kobe's legacy is the early 00's Laker dynasty and being the best 2-guard since Jordan. Wade's legacy so far is his insane run in the 06 playoffs and being the first guy to win a le from the Class of 03. Bron's legacy so far is the league's next potential icon after Jordan. Carter's legacy is that dunk on Frederic Weis and for being a selfish cancer.

Dominique in my opinion never really developed the all-around game you need to be a franchise player. He basically just outscored his man most nights.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

He also has a proven ability to quarter-ass it and mail it in.

I can't argue with that. Here's my view, the only reason Orlando wasn't eliminated in the 2nd round last year was KG's injury. They clearly needed to improve to compete with a healthy Boston or LA. There's a 100% chance returning the same team wasn't gonna cut it. There's a 90% chance the trade they made doesn't make a difference or maybe hurts them with VC's at ude, but there's a 10% chance Carter gets his head in the right place and puts Orlando over the top. From that perspective, it was a good trade.

[Findog]

I can't argue with that. Here's my view, the only reason Orlando wasn't eliminated in the 2nd round last year was KG's injury. They clearly needed to improve to compete with a healthy Boston or LA. There's a 100% chance returning the same team wasn't gonna cut it. There's a 90% chance the trade they made doesn't make a difference or maybe hurts them with VC's at ude, but there's a 10% chance Carter gets his head in the right place and puts Orlando over the top. From that perspective, it was a good trade.

I don't know about that. I don't think it's possible for KG to be as good as he was before that injury. That's a wear and tear injury from how much he's played. Maybe he'll be 70, 80% of what he was, but the Celtics were one miracle shot from Glen Davis from going home in 6 games. I don't think matchup-wise bringing in Shaq did anything in the long run for the Cavs. Good teams will just p'n'r the Cavs to death in the playoffs with Shaq on the floor. Lee would only be getting better. Last year's Magic team had chemistry. They really risked messing with it by making the trades they did. Time will tell if it pays off. I do respect the decision to not be complacent and try to tweak their way to a championship, but Carter is just not the guy I would've targeted.

[jag]

It's a good argument on both sides...but I'll stick with what i said from the beginning.

It'll be interesting to see how it all works out...but i liked how Hedo and Lee fit with the Magic.

There's no reason for the Magic to start thinking short-term. And the move for Carter was just that, a short-term move.

They could have locked down Lee and Hedo, and cultivated that young team to be a contender for the next 3-4 years. I dont see how having Carter is going to lift the Magic above the Lakers...so if the Magic think they can win right now with this team, they're in for a surprise.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I don't know about that. I don't think it's possible for KG to be as good as he was before that injury. That's a wear and tear injury from how much he's played. Maybe he'll be 70, 80% of what he was, but the Celtics were one miracle shot from Glen Davis from going home in 6 games. I don't think matchup-wise bringing in Shaq did anything in the long run for the Cavs. Good teams will just p'n'r the Cavs to death in the playoffs with Shaq on the floor. Lee would only be getting better. Last year's Magic team had chemistry. They really risked messing with it by making the trades they did. Time will tell if it pays off. I do respect the decision to not be complacent and try to tweak their way to a championship, but Carter is just not the guy I would've targeted.

There's a reason I only mentioned Boston and LA and not Cleveland. Lee will get better, as will as Ryan Anderson who has already fit in well with Orlando as a PF who can space the floor for the PNR but unlike Lewis or Turk is capable of bodying up legit big men.

Whether or not KG will return to his previous self, the fact remains their finals appearance last year was somewhat fool's gold. I think it was Jamstone who made this comparison and it made sense, Cleveland made the finals in 2007 and then SA mopped the floor with them and made them look like one of the worst teams ever in the finals. So what does Cleveland do? They sit on that finals appearance and stand there doing nothing as Boston got KG and Ray. Now, they settled for players exiled from their old team for one reason or another and are about to lose Lebron in 2010. Whether or not the Carter trade works, Orlando made a trade that potentially makes them better, that's more than Cleveland can say for their off season following 2007.

[Findog]

It's a good argument on both sides...but I'll stick with what i said from the beginning.



There's no reason for the Magic to start thinking short-term. And the move for Carter was just that, a short-term move.

They could have locked down Lee and Hedo, and cultivated that young team to be a contender for the next 3-4 years. I dont see how having Carter is going to lift the Magic above the Lakers...so if the Magic think they can win right now with this team, they're in for a surprise.

Yeah, that's a very young core except for Hedo. The one argument for letting Hedo walk is that he's 31 and they'd be locking in to him for 4/55, or whatever it was.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

So relating to what you previously said Findog, I'm probably biased towards this trade cause I always respect front offices with a realistic opinion of how good their team is and are willing to make a high risk high reward trade that gives the team potential to be a contender but also potentially causes the GM to lose his job.

[Darrin]

This is interesting considering VC's performance in the fourth against the Celtics in Boston.

[jag]

Yeah, that's a very young core except for Hedo. The one argument for letting Hedo walk is that he's 31 and they'd be locking in to him for 4/55, or whatever it was.

he's 30...but i get what you're saying. And locking him down till he's 34 might be justified considering how well he's played in the clutch, and more importantly his rare skill-set. 6'10" guys who can post-up, play point guard, and shoot the three don't grow on trees.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

he's 30...but i get what you're saying. And locking him down till he's 34 might be justified considering how well he's played in the clutch, and more importantly his rare skill-set. 6'10" guys who can post-up, play point guard, and shoot the three don't grow on trees.

He's had one series where he played well in the clutch. Other than that, he's a career choker.

[redzero]

This is interesting considering VC's performance in the fourth against the Celtics in Boston.

He played like Hedo would play (i.e., brick all of his shots until the end of the game).

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

He played like Hedo would play (i.e., brick all of his shots until the end of the game).

Better than Hedo in the finals, brick all his shots quarter 1-4.

[jag]

He's had one series where he played well in the clutch. Other than that, he's a career choker.

Seen a lot of him since '03 when he was on the Spurs...and "career choker" is not something that has ever come to mind when describing him.

And that "one series" was the most important series he'd ever played in with the Magic.

Either way, his skill-set is something to marvel at.