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Bowen just gave the most skilled player some credit. Can't say I agree with his idea of 2nd greatest player but Kobe is right up there with the best of them.Bowen just slapped all of the spurfans on this site.
Bowen just gave the most skilled player some credit. Can't say I agree with his idea of 2nd greatest player but Kobe is right up there with the best of them.
There was an interesting discussion about Kobe on PTI yesterday. Wilbon had Kobe as the 6th best Laker of all time, behind Magic, Kareem, Jerry West, Elgin Baylor, and George Mikan. Kornheiser had him 5th, ahead of Mikan.
Elgin Baylor practically never did with the Lakers. Sad case. Never won a championship. Excellent player though. I think Kobe is ahead of Baylor and Mikan, maybe even West.
Amen. After all they've been thru in this short season and now Bowen pulls this stunt.
Manoshevitz.
4th best all time scoring average at 27.4, averaged 13.5 rebounds for his career only being 6'5", and went to the finals seven times. He also averaged 26.4 PPG in the finals (44 games), and averaged 27.0 PPG for the playoffs in general (134 games). He also holds the scoring record for a finals game at 61 points - How did he never do with the Lakers?
The sight of him & West huddled in a corner (Wilt had fled) with the Celtics throwing dirty towels at them is daunting.
The Lakers franchise's ultimate goal is the championship. How do you get to the finals 7 times and not even win once is just incomprehensible. 13.5 rebounds? Do you know what the ridiculous pace of the game was in the 60s? In this era, the highest rebounding average is like 14.2 for a season. Baylor was also one of the most athletic forwards, you heard me, forward, in his era with the centers at around 6 foot 8. In this era, you are 6 foot 5, you would most probably be a guard. No doubt the guy is an excellent player, but if you are thinking he would average 13.5 rebounds in the 80s or 90s and the current decade does not make sense. However, I will not be suprised if he gets 9 rebounds a game or something. Nothing against Baylor. He is a great player whose accomplishment in the league was diminished cause he had no championships to show for it.
And even further diminished by the fact that they won a championship as soon as he retired IIRC.
Very good post btw.
Yer huddled in a corner with West with your hands over your eyes. Jabbar was gonna do the same gd thing until Magic took the whole bunch (West in a seer sucker suit now) kickin' & screamin' (Magic included) and burned off 5 before they could get him stopped.
They are insane numbers regardless of the era. It's not his fault they were going up against Russell's Celtics. It's not like Baylor wasn't tearing up in the playoffs and finals.
Even though 6-foot-4 Charles Barkley was pulling down 13 rpg in the 80s, or 6-foot-7 small forward Dennis Rodman averaged 15-19 rebounds a game for 7 years straight in the 1990s?
I don't disagree that there is some era adjustment in Baylor's numbers, but it wasn't just about 13 rpg. He averaged over 18 rpg twice in his career. His first four seasons, he averaged at least 15 rpg. I think you may give him too little credit. In today's NBA, he'd probably have to play a hybrid wing player, but he'd still probably be more of a small forward than a 2-guard. He'd still spend time rebounding. And, he'd probably be listed at 6'7 instead of 6'5.
Tough to criticize him for not winning a le when his prime years were up against Bill Russell's Celtics. Pretty much no one else in the league was winning les except for the Celtics during Baylor's career.
Chronological failure is not to be admired.
Cool Cul.
You should at least sympathize even if you don't admire.
You would know the feeling based on your post history here on SpursTalk.
I disagree. Not when he lost in the finals 8 TIMES (and not only to the Celtics) With some of the most loaded teams in NBA history. He couldn't win a championship playing with Jerry West, Wilt Chamberlain and Gail Goodrich. On top of that, then the Lakers finally break through and win as soon as he retires. That doesn't exactly help his case.
sad thing is Kobe is not even the 1st or 2nd best player this season
Now that is just silly. 1) He is pretty damn close. 2) Tim Duncan is no where to be found on that list of players this season, but does that diminish where he ranks overall?
Elgin Baylor played in 7 NBA Finals. He was injured for the 1965 NBA Finals.
He also faced the Boston Celtics 6 out of those 7 times. The only other team the Lakers faced in the Finals with Elgin Baylor on the team was the New York Knicks in 1970 when Elgin Baylor was 35 years old, and he still put up 19/10.
He only played with Wilt Chamberlain in two NBA Finals, again when Elgin was already 34 and 35 years old, and Wilt was scoring in the teens, not the dominating 35+ PPG he was earlier in his career.
Elgin Baylor also led his 1958-59 33-39 Minneapolis Lakers to the NBA Finals.
You see, you want to harp on the 8 times the Lakers went to the NBA Finals and lost without understanding why they went so many times. The league was a 9-12 team league for much of Elgin Baylor's career. There was one great team, and that was the Celtics. A bad team could make it to the Finals, obviously when you look at that record of the 1958-59 Lakers team at 33-39 and making it to the Finals. , the following year, the Lakers went 25-50 and made it to the division finals (equivalent to conference finals now). If you actually understood that, you wouldn't bash on Elgin Baylor's inability to win a le nearly as much.
In his prime, for example in 1961-62, he averaged 39 PPG and 18 RPG for the entire playoffs. You're going to fault him for not beating the Celtics in the Finals when he's putting up those kinds of numbers? The following year, he put up 33/14 in the playoffs. Yeah, must have been Elgin's fault.
Are you sure you're a Laker fan? Do you know any Laker history predating Shaq-Kobe?
Brandon Jennings best player of this past decade!!!!
Many already put Duncan in top 10 all time ...so it's not ridiculous ...but i would still put him behind MJ, Kobe and Magic ...
Those of you talking wilt and Russell are not old enough (most) to have seen them play so you guys are foolish. I ALWAYs in these debates start in the 1980's since that iswhen I start watching stats wise Wilt is the greatesteven over MJ but I never saw it ...so how can I say he is greater?
This puts your IQ level on par with your sig picture ...
I have no problems with this to be this far already is great but I think with perpective he will have the stats, rings and longevity pretty much be considered the best. Those that loved or grew up in the 60's, 70's or 80'sWill argue west, Baylor Kareem or Magic . Magic is STILL my all-time fave Laker ... but EVEN i can't argue that Kobe may in the end be greater ....but IMHO not yet. That said if I was going all-time top 5 by position he does not make it. It is still ... Kareem, Duncan, Bird Jordan and Magic. If positions are eliminated then the best I have ever seem are Kareem,Jordan, Magic Bryant and Hakeem with Bird and Duncan close behind. Shaq one notch below ...
u may wanna replace Duncan with Hakeem at forward...
Magic's teams were better and Bird did get him once in the finals..
And Kobe is still well behind Duncan on the All time list.
Duncan never played with a legendary all time center during that center's best years of his career. If D-Rob and Timmy played during D-Rob's prime for 5 or 6 years they would have got another 4 rings easy..
Duncan's got 4 rings and was the man on all 4 teams..
Duncan never was at the center of a team that missed the playoffs
Never got his ass kicked in the NBA finals
Kobe's great, Duncan is still better all time..
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