KObe disrespected Ewing, Willis Reed and Walt Frazier

[FkLA]

It makes no sense huh?

Not what Im doing at all bro

All Im asking you Laker fans is to take into account the fact that in 2000 (I could argue 2001 and 2002 as well but like I said it isnt necessary) Kobe was second fiddle to Shaq even if it was by the smallest of margins. When you do that there simply aint no way that you can equate his les to Duncan's child. Kobe still has 4 les just like Duncan, he just wasnt first fiddle for all of them like Timmy was. Which helps Tim's 4 carry more weight than Kobe's 4.

[carrao45]

I'm sorry, if you're trying to debunk my point that he had top notch talent around him for 80% of his career, I don't see where you're going with this response.

I wasn't. I was replying to your comment about them missing the playoffs.



About the talent he played with...Magic played with more talent than anyone ever, with the exception of Horry (Lucky guy, he played with Hakeem, Shaq Kobe, Duncan, TP, Ginobili). Does that make Magic's accomplishments less credible?

[FkLA]

No, I admitted that Kobe's 2000 run was lesser in a previous post. Try to keep up.

Agree to disagree, Kobe's les are as legit as Duncan's in my eyes

man, Im not saying Kobe only has 3 les or 1...he has 4 just like Timmy does, theyre legit. Fisher has 4 just like Tim and Kobe do. The point Im trying to make is how many these players have as first fiddle. Timmy has done it more times as first fiddle which helps his 4 carry more weight than Kobe's 4.

I dont see how you can objectively view it any other way, but whatever

[ElNono]

About the talent he played with...Magic played with more talent than anyone ever, with the exception of Horry (Lucky guy, he played with Hakeem, Shaq Kobe, Duncan, TP, Ginobili). Does that make Magic's accomplishments less credible?

No, but you can't ignore it's not a factor when determining his place in history. It's part of the reason why Jordan is considered the GOAT, instead of Magic. Similarly, when Kobe's place in history is determined, I'm sure these later years will weight much more heavily than the years he played alongside one of the most dominant players of this decade.

[ChrisRichards]

No, but you can't ignore it's not a factor when determining his place in history. It's part of the reason why Jordan is considered the GOAT, instead of Magic. Similarly, when Kobe's place in history is determined, I'm sure these later years will weight much more heavily than the years he played alongside one of the most dominant players of this decade.

if kobe wins less than 3, then he will be remembered as a role player on the first 3 then as a 1st option on his last championship

[carrao45]

man, Im not saying Kobe only has 3 les or 1...he has 4 just like Timmy does, theyre legit. Fisher has 4 just like Tim and Kobe do. The point Im trying to make is how many these players have as first fiddle. Timmy has done it more times as first fiddle which helps his 4 carry more weight than Kobe's 4.

I dont see how you can objectively view it any other way, but whatever

I can see where you're coming from when talking about Fisher/Horry etc.

However considering how good Kobe was, I just can't view any of his les ( Except maybe 2000) as "carrying less weight" than Duncans.

And Kobe shouldn't be penalized for having Shaq as a teammate.




Also think of it this way. Kobe and Duncan on the same team instead of Kobe and Shaq. Who is the first option? Kobe IMO. So if they won together, Kobe's le would mean more than Duncan's (According to your logic). Would that really be true?

[ElNono]

Are you serious??? There is not a sane person on this planet that will question MAGICS greatness, with or without the players he played with.

Who said Magic is not great? Quote please.

[ezau]

Call me crazy, but I'm just not easily impressed by your acceptance of underachieving players. Stats are worthless unless accompanied with les.

Fact is, stats speaks volumes of any player's contribution. Rings matter of course, but to dismiss anyone who hasn't won a ring as a role player is definitely wrong

[carrao45]

No, but you can't ignore it's not a factor when determining his place in history. It's part of the reason why Jordan is considered the GOAT, instead of Magic. Similarly, when Kobe's place in history is determined, I'm sure these later years will weight much more heavily than the years he played alongside one of the most dominant players of this decade.

There it is. That is why basketball debates are both fun and frustrating. A players greatness will always be defined by the person considering it. Kobe will be greater in my eyes than in yours.

This is why nobody ever says, "You win, your logic is flawless, I lose" in these debates. Because it is impossible to win or to lose.

I believe Kobe's Shaq and Post-Shaq years should both weigh equally. As should the les

[ElNono]

And Kobe shouldn't be penalized for having Shaq as a teammate.

But he will be. They all are at one point or another. It's like Ginobili's career in the NBA will always be diminished because he played with Duncan. Same think with Parker. Even though Manu was instrumental in '05 and Tony won a Finals MVP in '07.

[ezau]

At least do me the service of following along in the posts before you go challenging me. I already said that Kobe was wrong for including Wade, he's a role player. As much as I hate James.... He's going to eventually learn to play his position, and allow his teammates to grow, and then he will be unstoppable and maybe win some rings. His decision this summer will be career breaking.

Wade a role player? The same guy who gave Miami the championship back in 2006. The fact that you said that anyone who hasn't won a ring is a role player already excludes Wade

[FkLA]

I can see where you're coming from when talking about Fisher/Horry etc.

However considering how good Kobe was, I just can't view any of his les ( Except maybe 2000) as "carrying less weight" than Duncans.

And Kobe shouldn't be penalized for having Shaq as a teammate.

As a result of the 2000 le in which u admit he 'carried less weight' dont Duncan's 4 carry more weight than Kobe's 4? Even if it is by a small margin? And Im not penalizing him its just something you cant ignore.

Also think of it this way. Kobe and Duncan on the same team instead of Kobe and Shaq. Who is the first option? Kobe IMO. So if they won together, Kobe's le would mean more than Duncan's (According to your logic). Would that really be true?

Well, thats a whole different argument because personally from 00-02 I think Duncan was a better player than Kobe. But assuming Kobe was better, and lets assume Shaq was with San Antonio winning les as the clear cut centerpiece...than yes I would definitely think that Shaq's les held more weight than Duncan's because Duncan was second fiddle to Kobe.

[ElNono]

You small minded .

Originally Posted by ElNono View Post

No, but you can't ignore it's not a factor when determining his place in history. It's part of the reason why Jordan is considered the GOAT, instead of Magic. Similarly, when Kobe's place in history is determined, I'm sure these later years will weight much more heavily than the years he played alongside one of the most dominant players of this decade.

I still don't see it. And at least two other posters clearly understood what I was saying. I'm sorry, if you're too dumb I can't help you.

[carrao45]

As a result of the 2000 le in which u admit he 'carried less weight' dont Duncan's 4 carry more weight than Kobe's 4? Even if it is by a small margin? And Im not penalizing him its just something you cant ignore.

Sure, but then you factor in Kobe 3-Peating, while Duncan has never been able to repeat, and then Kobe's carry at least as much weight at TD's. Almost all repeat champions will tell you, it's much harder to repeat than to do it once

Well, thats a whole different argument because personally from 00-02 I think Duncan was a better player than Kobe. But assuming Kobe was better, and say Shaq was with San Antonio winning les as the clear cut centerpiece...than yes I would definitely think that Shaq's les held more weight than Duncan's because Duncan was second fiddle to Kobe.

That wasn't even my argument...but ok

[ElNono]

The Whistler is a role player. Are you blind? I mean seriously, all jokes aside, and your hate for Mavfan. The refs gift wrapped The Whistler a le. Wade is just a glorified Joe Johnson.

So who was the marquee player of that Miami team?

[ezau]

The Whistler is a role player. Are you blind? I mean seriously, all jokes aside, and your hate for Mavfan. The refs gift wrapped The Whistler a le. Wade is just a glorified Joe Johnson.

Regardless, a ring is a ring. We're not discussing whether Wade whistled his way to get the LOB because it's a completely different thing. He won a ring and by your standards, anyone who hasn't won a ring is a role player. Is Wade still a role player by your own terms?

[carrao45]

The Whistler is a role player. Are you blind? I mean seriously, all jokes aside, and your hate for Mavfan. The refs gift wrapped The Whistler a le. Wade is just a glorified Joe Johnson.

No

[ElNono]

LOL the goalposts keep on movin on this thread...
I gotta sleep. Nite everyone...

[carrao45]

Your stupidity knows no bounders. You claimed that MJ is the Greatest Of All Time partly because Magic played with such good players. That's questioning his greatness, and you are a fool to do so.

Boundaries maybe?

[ElNono]

Your stupidity knows no bounders. You claimed that MJ is the Greatest Of All Time partly because Magic played with such good players. That's questioning his greatness, and you are a fool to do so.

Nope. But I can tell your pretty dumb if that's what you understood from my post.
Goodnight. And stop lying please! We all agree Kobe is playing great.

[ezau]

Don't try and twist my words, ez. Wade is just a role player.

You're one crazy son of a gun

[ElNono]

Yup, you're defeated.

LOL... winning in the Internetz... Serious Business!

[FkLA]

Sure, but then you factor in Kobe 3-Peating, while Duncan has never been able to repeat, and then Kobe's carry at least as much weight at TD's. Almost all repeat champions will tell you, it's much harder to repeat than to do it once

That wasn't even my argument...but ok

Um ok, I guess I'll remember this if Kobe reaches 6 and you guys try to compare it to MJ. Wont be the same since MJ did it 6 times in a row and Kobe didnt.

And nah it wasnt the scenario you described, but it shouldve been since it is the exact same comparison we're doing except we're switching Shaq and Duncan...but as for your original scenario yes Kobe's 4 wouldve carried more weight than Timmy's if they were to have been teammates and Kobe was first fiddle of the team.

[carrao45]

Um ok, I guess I'll remember this if Kobe reaches 6 and you guys try to compare it to MJ. Wont be the same since MJ did it 6 times in a row and Kobe didnt.
MJ 3-Peated twice. He doesn't get a pass for the years he quit to play baseball.

And nah it wasnt the scenario you described, but it shouldve been since it is the exact same comparison we're doing except we're switching Shaq and Duncan...but as for your original scenario yes Kobe's 4 wouldve carried more weight than Timmy's if they were to have been teammates and Kobe was first fiddle of the team.

Agree to disagree then

[NBAfan83]

TBH, in the whole history of NBA, only Kobe and MJ can be considered Marquee players, everyone else are role players, if you think about it. Because these two players never had a bad game, if they shot poorly, they would make up elsewhere, and literally will their teams to win.

Everyone else on every team including the lakers are role players tbh.