You didn't qualify the 22 ppg. You said 22 ppg was mediocre for a superstar. Period. Now you want to change it and qualify it by adding that it's ok if you win a ring. Clearly back-pedaling b.s.
Winning rings still takes a team effort. Hakeem had already become a superstar as early as his second season in the league.
In Hakeem's second season when the Rockets made the NBA Finals and lost to Boston, Hakeem averaged 27 ppg, 12 rpg, and 3 bpg in those playoffs, while leading that Rockets team past the defending Championship LA Lakers in the Western Conference Finals. That same Laker team featuring Magic, Kareem, and Worthy.
Ask Magic if Hakeem didn't hit his prime until 32.
Disagreeing with thrown out numbers compared to Duncan, Magic, Kobe is back-pedaling? hahah. Would you shoot me down if I stupidly brought in Dwight's 20ppg and 14 rebounds?
I'm refuting your stance that 22ppg is acceptable in this conversation of Kobe vs Hakeem. Next thing you know, you're going to bring up irrelevant stuff like Robert Horry's 8 rings to make him the greatest like the basic sheep does.
If you ain't winning and/or having outstanding superstar numbers, you're not great. Simple stuff.
Hakeem was a superstar; so was Kobe. Pretty irrevelant in comparing the two players.Winning rings still takes a team effort. Hakeem had already become a superstar as early as his second season in the league.
Flukes happen. Outside of this fluke; he didn't reach the promised land again until he was 32.In Hakeem's second season when the Rockets made the NBA Finals and lost to Boston, Hakeem averaged 27 ppg, 12 rpg, and 3 bpg in those playoffs, while leading that Rockets team past the defending Championship LA Lakers in the Western Conference Finals. That same Laker team featuring Magic, Kareem, and Worthy.
Ask Magic if Hakeem didn't hit his prime until 32.
Just ask LeBron in 2007.
Last edited by Allanon; 11-27-2009 at 08:23 PM.
Do you think Hakeem in his 20's was a Kobe, Duncan, Magic caliber player?
Absolutely, he was. He was every bit the player Duncan was...
88-89 - 24.8 PPG, 13.5 RPG, 1.8 APG, 2.6 SPG, 4.6 BPG
89-90 - 24.3 PPG, 14.0 RPG, 2.9 APG, 2.1 SPG, 4.6 BPG
You are saying Hakeem in 1988-1990, before his 'prime' wasnt of the caliber of Duncan and Magic? I struggle to even put Kobe in that group in terms of all time. Any scoring advantage Kobe has on Hakeem which you brought up, is made by Hakeem being the best defensive player, EVER. And then some.
Just look at those numbers, no player can touch that today. He makes Dwight Howard look like freakin role player.
Dwight put up close numbers last year...and Dwight is nowhere near the caliber of Duncan, Magic and Kobe.
I think you're selling Tim Duncan and Magic way short, in addition to their stats, they were championship winners.
Kobe has been a great defender while putting up godly scoring. Kobe's made the All Defensive first team numerous times. All the while being considered the best player in the game... a distinction I think Hakeem only held in 95.
In 2008-2009, Dwight put up
21 points, 14 rebounds, and 3 blocks.
So Hakeem scored 3 more points and added 1.5 more blocks and that makes Hakeem a Tim Duncan caliber player but Dwight is a role-player with those numbers?
That doesn't make sense to me. By your logic, Dwight is a Duncan caliber player and that's just laughable.
allanon is so ing dumb, i don't have the patience to argue with him right now. i'll be back to battle you after a good nights sleep, you're giving me a headache
Hahah Mavs > Spurs is still butt-hurt over my previous pwnage. Run along to bed now, see you tomorrow M>S
there was no pwnage involved, but you putting kobe ahead of the 2nd best player of the modern era and best defensive player of all time is pwning the out of my head.
I think i could come up with a cure for cancer and aids before i could even attempt to comprehend your ty logic
Don't be stupid.
I said Kobe is better than Hakeem in his years prior to the championships. Hakeem was a basketball god during the championship years, nobody denies that.
I'd like to see your counter and proof tomorrow on how Hakeem was better (prior to the Championships) than Kobe; should be entertaining pwnage
Hakeem in his prime. That guy ted on Drob like no one else and if Jordan's Bulls have met Hakeem's Rockets in those two le years, MJ is screwed.
Hakeem prior to his championship years >>>>>>>>>>>>> Kobe prior to his championship years, not even close.
Then Hakeem during championship run >>>> Kobe during championship run.
Look it up.
This is true, Kobe was still in his rookie contract prior to his championship.
Thus Hakeem > Kobe, cuz you already said Hakeem > Kobe during their respective primes, no?
No, I didn't say that.
Rookie years are not in their prime.
Kobe is not really a guy you build around. Shaq, Gasol those are good guys to build around. Just look how good they make Kobe look to ignorant fans.
Shaq, Yes.
But Gasol no. Pau was the king of getting swept in the first round before he hooked up with Kobe.
Did y'all forget that Pau didn't win ANY Playoff games until Kobe showed him the way in 08?
Pau's a good #2 guy, but should never be a #1 guy.
Kobe in the meantime, had already won 3 championships.
Culburn, your posts are a constant mind to read. Sometimes they don't have any coherency whatsoever. what the are you saying man.
swing and a miss
Hahaha. That '04 Pistons team was going to steamroll you regardless of who you had on the floor.
Kobe wasnt considered the consensus best player in the league until Pau Gasol came along. Even now, LeBron still gets talked about as the best player in the league. With what LeBron has been doing all the while, i dont think Kobe has even ever been the 'consensus' best like Hakeem was during his repeat. While Kobe was scoring 30+ a game, Dywane Wade was winning Finals MVP and LeBron was taking his crummy team to the Finals putting up 30-7-7.
Comparing Howard favourably to Hakeem isnt right either. Defensively maybe (Hakeem was much better still), but offensively its a no contest. Comparing Hakeem to Howard is like comparing 2005 Ray Allen to Kobe, the numbers at first glance may be comparable, but its a no contest. And using defense to compare Kobe to Hakeem isnt going to do Kobe any favours either - defensively, wings can only limit the output of one player, a big man like Hakeem or Duncan limits and entire opposition, all five players on the court.
I believe Kobe's been a consensus best individual player at least since the 81 point year....if not sooner.
Sure, but it's semantics. Hakeem was neither outstanding in stats nor was he winning games. Dwight had Hakeem like numbers and both resulted in the same. If Dwight had won last year; we'd be looking at him differently. But he didn't so he's just another Superstar player.Comparing Howard favourably to Hakeem isnt right either. Defensively maybe (Hakeem was much better still), but offensively its a no contest. Comparing Hakeem to Howard is like comparing 2005 Ray Allen to Kobe, the numbers at first glance may be comparable, but its a no contest. And using defense to compare Kobe to Hakeem isnt going to do Kobe any favours either - defensively, wings can only limit the output of one player, a big man like Hakeem or Duncan limits and entire opposition, all five players on the court.
I think Patrick Ewing even had a few monster years very comparable to Hakeem prior to his Championship.
There's always been Superstars like Hakeem, but guys like Duncan, Magic, Kobe transcended the Superstar ranks. Hakeem didn't transcend his fellow Superstars until he was 32. Kobe's been beyond the regular superstars for a few years now.
Dwight's best year
20.6 PPG, 13.8 RPG, 1.4 APG, 1.0 SPG, 2.9 BPG
Hakeem's best before his 'prime'...
24.3 PPG, 14.0 RPG, 2.9 APG, 2.12 SPG, 4.59 BPG
Thats a healthy advantage in points and scoring, passing out of double teams, steals and blocks. In every aspect of the game, scoring, passing out of double and triple teams, and defense, Hakeem was better than Howard. They are equal's only in rebounding.
The reason Howard still isnt talked about as the best player in the league like a Duncan or a Hakeem is because he doesnt have a reliable post game outside of dunks from within 5 feet. There's a reason Dwight only takes 12 shots per game, he hasnt got the offensive game to get more baskets of his own back. You cant give him the ball further than 10 feet from the basket and let him create for himself and for others. If you look back, all of the great big men of the modern era have had that ability to have a championship offense run through them in the post, and make their entire team better. Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem and Kareem, they all had that ability. Dwight Howard does not.
When it comes to big men, that's what seperates a superstar, from a legend.
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