Kobe or Hakeem

[mystargtr34]

I believe Kobe's been a consensus best individual player at least since the 81 point year....if not sooner.



Sure, but it's semantics. Hakeem was neither outstanding in stats nor was he winning games. Dwight had Hakeem like numbers and both resulted in the same. If Dwight had won last year; we'd be looking at him differently. But he didn't so he's just another Superstar player.

I think Patrick Ewing even had a few monster years very comparable to Hakeem prior to his Championship.

There's always been Superstars like Hakeem, but guys like Duncan, Magic, Kobe transcended the Superstar ranks. Hakeem didn't transcend his fellow Superstars until he was 32. Kobe's been beyond the regular superstars for a few years now.

That's where i think your wrong. Hakeem was as transcedent as they come. Nobody ever saw a Hakeem before Hakeem.... before Kobe, there was Michael Jordan. Who do you think was like Hakeem before he came along? The freak athleticism, combined with the skill level of a guard? Wilt was there as a freak athlete, but he was more Shaq than Hakeem in that he overpowered his opposition. Skill wise, Kevin Mchale, but he was no where near the athlete Hakeem was.

Since Hakeem, there has been Duncan, but even he never had that freak explosive athleticism, but he had the fluidity and 'ground athleticism' that almost no other 7 footer has had.

[Allanon]

Dwight's best year

20.6 PPG, 13.8 RPG, 1.4 APG, 1.0 SPG, 2.9 BPG

Hakeem's best before his 'prime'...

24.3 PPG, 14.0 RPG, 2.9 APG, 2.12 SPG, 4.59 BPG

Thats a healthy advantage in points and scoring, passing out of double teams, steals and blocks. In every aspect of the game, scoring, passing out of double and triple teams, and defense, Hakeem was better than Howard. They are equal's only in rebounding.

The reason Howard still isnt talked about as the best player in the league like a Duncan or a Hakeem is because he doesnt have a reliable post game outside of dunks from within 5 feet. There's a reason Dwight only takes 12 shots per game, he hasnt got the offensive game to get more baskets of his own back. You cant give him the ball further than 10 feet from the basket and let him create for himself and for others. If you look back, all of the great big men of the modern era have had that ability to have a championship offense run through them in the post, and make their entire team better. Shaq, Duncan, Hakeem and Kareem, they all had that ability. Dwight Howard does not.

When it comes to big men, that's what seperates a superstar, from a legend.

So if Dwight put up 3.7 more points, 1.5 assists and 1.7 more blocks, he'd be in Duncan's company?

Duncan and Magic are great because they won Championships as major pieces to their team. Hakeem never won with that 22ppg average which makes him an average superstar like Dwight. It wasn't until later that Hakeem became the real Dream by putting together all the pieces to his game.

Kobe's best statistical year was 35ppg and not winning anything. That in itself I think is also greater than any of Hakeem's pre-championship years.

Kobe put up 27 points and 5 assists last year while winning a championship. I think that in itself is greater than anything Hakeem ever did prior to winning a championship.

Kobe had pre-championship Hakeem beat both statistically and through winning.

[mystargtr34]

Nooo, dumb dumb, not Shaq, take him off that list. Shaq was lucky to have Chris Jackson, Penny, Kobe, Wade, and now James to carry him. His game was 5ft and in, and he never developed a go-to move like the others on your list.

Shaq had a better post game than Howard. Drop steps, hook shots, up and unders. Plus, he was one of the best passing big men of all time, even better than Hakeem and every bit as good as Duncan.

[ChrisRichards]

So if Dwight put up 3.7 more points, 1.5 assists and 1.7 more blocks, he'd be in Duncan's company?

Duncan and Magic are great because they won Championships as major pieces to their team. Hakeem never won with that 22ppg average which makes him an average superstar like Dwight. It wasn't until later that Hakeem became the real Dream by putting together all the pieces to his game.

Kobe's best statistical year was 35ppg and not winning anything. That in itself I think is also greater than any of Hakeem's pre-championship years.

Kobe put up 27 points and 5 assists last year while winning a championship. I think that in itself is greater than anything Hakeem ever did prior to winning a championship.

Kobe had pre-championship Hakeem beat both statistically and through winning.

Dude please dont tell me you're serious.


If Kobe leads his Lakers into another championship this season, then you have a case. Until then, Kobe is not better than Olajuwon. Olajuwon is a far better defensive player than Kobe, and though KB is a much more talented offensive player than the Dream, Olajuwon and his dream shake, 13 foot jumper was no slouch either.

[Allanon]

Dude please dont tell me you're serious.


If Kobe leads his Lakers into another championship this season, then you have a case. Until then, Kobe is not better than Olajuwon. Olajuwon is a far better defensive player than Kobe, and though KB is a much more talented offensive player than the Dream, Olajuwon and his dream shake, 13 foot jumper was no slouch either.

I'm comparing pre-championship Hakeem to Kobe right now. Kobe right now is better than Hakeem was prior to his championships.

Pre-championship Hakeem was just one of the very good players. He didn't become the Great Dream until he was 32.

[mystargtr34]

So if Dwight put up 3.7 more points, 1.5 assists and 1.7 more blocks, he'd be in Duncan's company?

Duncan and Magic are great because they won Championships as major pieces to their team. Hakeem never won with that 22ppg average which makes him an average superstar like Dwight. It wasn't until later that Hakeem became the real Dream by putting together all the pieces to his game.

Kobe's best statistical year was 35ppg and not winning anything. That in itself I think is also greater than any of Hakeem's pre-championship years.

Kobe put up 27 points and 5 assists last year while winning a championship. I think that in itself is greater than anything Hakeem ever did prior to winning a championship.

Kobe had pre-championship Hakeem beat both statistically and through winning.

To do what Hakeem and Duncan were doing number's wise, Howard would have to add alot to his game. The key isnt necessarily the numbers, its that ability to have an offense run through him, and make his team mates better - thats what all the great big men had. That shows in the numbers indirectly, scoring and assists, but alot of it doesnt.

[Allanon]

To do what Hakeem and Duncan were doing number's wise, Howard would have to add alot to his game. The key isnt necessarily the numbers, its that ability to have an offense run through him, and make his team mates better - thats what all the great big men had. That shots in the numbers indirectly, scoring and assists, but alot of it doesnt.

I don't deny that Hakeem was a very good player prior to becoming a Champion. Just like Dwight. And, yes, it's laughable to compare Dwight to Hakeem although they could put up similar numbers. That's the point, the modi of numbers didn't really distinguish Hakeem, nor did his winning ways.

However, at the same time, I don't think Hakeem ever entered Kobe, Duncan, Magic territory until that Championship year.

It's equally laughable to compare a ringless, non stat-stuffer in Hakeem to a 4 time NBA Champion with mega stats and mega 81 point games like Kobe.

[mystargtr34]

I don't deny that Hakeem was a very good player prior to becoming a Champion. Just like Dwight. And, it's laughable to compare Dwight to Hakeem although they could put up similar numbers.

However, at the same time, I don't think Hakeem ever entered Kobe, Duncan, Magic territory until that Championship year.

We should compare pre championship Hakeem to pre 2009 champion Kobe. Im not taking anything away from the 3-peat, but historically, theres a difference between winning championships as the main guy, and as the second guy. Kobe was the best side kick of all time, but its a fairer comparison this way.

[Allanon]

We should compare pre championship Hakeem to pre 2009 champion Kobe. Im not taking anything away from the 3-peat, but historically, theres a difference between winning championships as the main guy, and as the second guy. Kobe was the best side kick of all time, but its a fairer comparison this way.

Pre-championship Hakeem would still lose to Kobe due to Kobe's statistical wonder years and 3 championships even as a sidekick.

The only comparison Hakeem would win is post championship Hakeem vs current Kobe or pre 1st championship Kobe to Hakeem at any time.

[mystargtr34]

Pre-championship Hakeem would still lose to Kobe due to Kobe's statistical wonder years and 3 championships even as a sidekick.

The only comparison Hakeem would win is post championship Hakeem vs current Kobe or pre 1st championship Kobe to Hakeem at any time.

OK, lets talk compare the two before they won championship's as the main dogs. Offensively, Kobe was greater, i agree with you there. Defensively Hakeem was greater. You brought up Kobe being an All-NBA first team defender as one of your arguments for him. I just want to show you how much of an impact Hakeem has defensively, compared to Kobe.

Ill be back in about half an hour, i still havent had a shower after the gym.

[Allanon]

OK, lets talk compare the two before they won championship's as the main dogs. Offensively, Kobe was greater, i agree with you there. Defensively Hakeem was greater. You brought up Kobe being an All-NBA first team defender as one of your arguments for him. I just want to show you how much of an impact Hakeem has defensively, compared to Kobe.

Ill be back in about half an hour, i still havent had a shower after the gym.

Sounds good. Pre-championship Hakeem vs pre 4th championship Kobe is a debateable argument.

[JamStone]

Would you consider the following stats to be a superstar level the likes of "superstar" Kobe in his prime?

26.9 ppg, 11.8 rpg, 3.45 bpg, 2.0 apg, 2.0 spg, 53.0% FG
29.2 ppg, 11.3 rpg, 4.0 bpg, 2.5 apg, 1.3 spg, 61.5% FG

[Allanon]

Would you consider the following stats to be a superstar level the likes of "superstar" Kobe in his prime?

26.9 ppg, 11.8 rpg, 3.45 bpg, 2.0 apg, 2.0 spg, 53.0% FG
29.2 ppg, 11.3 rpg, 4.0 bpg, 2.5 apg, 1.3 spg, 61.5% FG

Yes they would be.

[JamStone]

Yes they would be.

Those are the stats Hakeem put up in the playoffs in his second year in the league as a 23 year old (20 games) and his third year in the league as a 24 year old (10 games).

Those second year stats include a five game series against the defending LA Lakers where Hakeem totaled 40 points, 35 points, and 30 points in the final three games of that 1986 WC Finals.

Imagine if Hakeem actually was in his prime already...

[Allanon]

Those are the stats Hakeem put up in the playoffs in his second year in the league as a 23 year old (20 games) and his third year in the league as a 24 year old (10 games).

Those second year stats include a five game series against the defending LA Lakers where Hakeem totaled 40 points, 35 points, and 30 points in the final three games of that 1986 WC Finals.

Imagine if Hakeem actually was in his prime already...

That's the knock on Hakeem right there. He was an outstanding player for the first couple years. First 3 years of Hakeem's career, he had Kobe's 1st 3 years beat hands down.

Then he became just one of the guys for like the rest of his 20's and into his 30's.

If he had kept up that monster game throughout his career, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Kobe's been consistently great (even compared to other superstars) for a decade now.

[JamStone]

Are you now changing your argument to Hakeem starting his prime in his second year in the league and then for the following three seasons, then not being in his prime again until he was 32?

Come on now. Your arguments are nonsensical. My arguments haven't even been about who was greater in their prime. My issue with what you've said was that Hakeem's prime didn't even start until he was 32. That's what I have a problem with. Hakeem was a superstar early on in his career, and yes, a superstar the level of a Kobe, Duncan, and Magic. Perhaps he was more like Duncan in that he didn't have the pub and hype and Hollywood storyline to make him a "commercial" superstar that Kobe or Magic or MJ or LeBron were/are. But, on the basketball court, he was every bit the superstar, and it wasn't only when he was 32 and won a le.

I'll keep repeating the same things. As a second year NBA player, he was the best player on the Houston Rockets that went all the way to the NBA Finals and on the way beating the defending NBA Champion Lakers. A "mediocre" superstar doesn't do that. And it wasn't a fluke.

Winning les, heck, winning playoff series takes a team effort. Why would you knock Hakeem when he was putting up superstar numbers but his team couldn't beat better teams. Look at his 1988 playoff stats in a first round exit to Dallas, 37.5 ppg and 16.8 rpg. You know what, look at Hakeem's playoff stats before Houston won their first le:

26.4 ppg
12.8 rpg
2.6 apg
3.8 bpg
1.8 spg
53.5% FG
39.9 mpg

Compare those to Kobe's playoff stats from 2003 to 2008, when the Lakers weren't winning les. I won't even include his first three playoff seasons when he wasn't a full time starter because those stats will skew his numbers.

28.6 ppg
5.3 rpg
5.3 apg
1.55 spg
45.0% FG
43.2 mpg

And, that's with Kobe averaging over 3 more minutes a game. Look at the per 36 minute stats to even them out.

Hakeem: 23.8 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 2.3 apg, 3.4 bpg, 1.6 spg
Kobe: 23.8 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 4.4 apg, 1.29 spg

This is 2003-08 Kobe, mind you, all in what you would consider his "prime."

[Capt Bringdown]

Tough call, but I'd chose Hakeem due to his strength of character and warrior mental toughness.
Kobe is great, and it's not really his fault, but he has been wrapped in cotton wool, protected, pampered and promoted his entire career. He hasn't faced many obstacles in his career, only greased skids. He's not an overcomer, he's a performer who excels when placed in ideal cir stances.

By contrast, Hakeem faced long odds his entire career and triumphed in many challenging situations. His passion for improving himself and his teammates makes him the hands down winner IMO.

[Allanon]

Are you now changing your argument to Hakeem starting his prime in his second year in the league and then for the following three seasons, then not being in his prime again until he was 32?

Not at all, Hakeem had 2 good years then disappeared. That's not his prime unless you're into 2 year players.

Come on now. Your arguments are nonsensical. My arguments haven't even been about who was greater in their prime. My issue with what you've said was that Hakeem's prime didn't even start until he was 32. That's what I have a problem with. Hakeem was a superstar early on in his career, and yes, a superstar the level of a Kobe, Duncan, and Magic. Perhaps he was more like Duncan in that he didn't have the pub and hype and Hollywood storyline to make him a "commercial" superstar that Kobe or Magic or MJ or LeBron were/are. But, on the basketball court, he was every bit the superstar, and it wasn't only when he was 32 and won a le.

I disagree. For 2 playoffs he played like Kobe, Duncan and Magic, then he became Dwight Howard for the rest of his 20's.

If you can accept his average superstar numbers and lack of winning rings; then you can also accept Dwight Howard as being on Duncan's level.

Nonsensical right there. This is what you call "flashes of brilliance", not their "prime".

I'll keep repeating the same things. As a second year NBA player, he was the best player on the Houston Rockets that went all the way to the NBA Finals and on the way beating the defending NBA Champion Lakers. A "mediocre" superstar doesn't do that. And it wasn't a fluke.

Yup, 1 great year, and what did he do the following years? Dwight got to the Finals against the Lakers last year, does that put him in Kobe, Duncan and Magic terirtory?

Winning les, heck, winning playoff series takes a team effort. Why would you knock Hakeem when he was putting up superstar numbers but his team couldn't beat better teams. Look at his 1988 playoff stats in a first round exit to Dallas, 37.5 ppg and 16.8 rpg. You know what, look at Hakeem's playoff stats before Houston won their first le:

Woohoo, Hakeem put up 37.5 and 17 rpg against Bill Wennington and en-route to losing 3-1. Bill friggin' Wennington.

And since you brought up those Mavs, here's the HoF'er stacked Mavs team the Great Hakeem lost to 1-3.

Mark Aguirre
Derek Harper
Rolando Blackman
Roy Tarpley
Sam Perkins
Detlef Schrempf
James Donaldson
Brad Davis
Uew Blab
Bill Wennington
Jim Farmer
Steve Alford

Compare those to Kobe's playoff stats from 2003 to 2008, when the Lakers weren't winning les. I won't even include his first three playoff seasons when he wasn't a full time starter because those stats will skew his numbers.

28.6 ppg
5.3 rpg
5.3 apg
1.55 spg
45.0% FG
43.2 mpg

And, that's with Kobe averaging over 3 more minutes a game. Look at the per 36 minute stats to even them out.

Hakeem: 23.8 ppg, 11.5 rpg, 2.3 apg, 3.4 bpg, 1.6 spg
Kobe: 23.8 ppg, 4.4 rpg, 4.4 apg, 1.29 spg

This is 2003-08 Kobe, mind you, all in what you would consider his "prime."

Rather odd that you would leave out Kobe's Championship years. Oh that's right, Hakeem never had any until 32.

And why skew it to per minute stats, the great Hakeem couldn't even get as much floor time as Kobe?

So while Hakeem was getting bounced 3-1 and taking off during the regular season, Kobe was beasting in both the regular season and Playoffs while bringing home 4 rings.

How is this a comparison again?

[ezau]

That's where i think your wrong. Hakeem was as transcedent as they come. Nobody ever saw a Hakeem before Hakeem.... before Kobe, there was Michael Jordan. Who do you think was like Hakeem before he came along? The freak athleticism, combined with the skill level of a guard? Wilt was there as a freak athlete, but he was more Shaq than Hakeem in that he overpowered his opposition. Skill wise, Kevin Mchale, but he was no where near the athlete Hakeem was.

Since Hakeem, there has been Duncan, but even he never had that freak explosive athleticism, but he had the fluidity and 'ground athleticism' that almost no other 7 footer has had.

Very well said. Hakeem had the crazy combination of skills and agility. He was like a SF playing the center position. Kobe meanwhile is no more than MJ's most recent version. Before Hakeem, there was nothing like him that the league has ever seen. As far as athleticism is concerned, Howard is comparable, but he's nothing compared to Hakeem's skills.

[Lars]

Im pretty sure Allanon has never even seen Hakeem play.

[Allanon]

Im pretty sure Allanon has never even seen Hakeem play.

Do you think pre-championship Hakeem was better than Kobe right now, Lars?

0 ring Hakeem compared to 4 ringed Kobe, 4 ringed Duncan and 5 ring Magic is laughable.

[Amaso]

You can tell the people who don't truly know basketball when they think Hakeem only had 2 prime years during his career. Hakeem was an absolute monster every year he played and carried his team to 2 championships by himself. He would've beaten Michael's Bulls had they met in those finals, and would've added to his legend. I have Hakeem as the greatest center ever, and I would probably say its a tie between Kobe (when he retires) and Hakeem.

[JamStone]

Not at all, Hakeem had 2 good years then disappeared. That's not his prime unless you're into 2 year players.

Disappeared? Now you're just flat-out lying.

From the 1987-88 season to the 1992-93 season, Hakeem averaged:

23.7 ppg
13.1 rpg
3.9 bpg
2.5 apg
2.1 spg
51.1% FG

In those six seasons, he garnered 3 all NBA first team honors, 1 second team honor, 1 third team honor, 3 all NBA defense first team, and 1 all NBA defense second team. He won a DPOY, two rebounding les, and 2 blocked shots les.

Disappeared?

In the playoffs in those same 6 seasons, he averaged:

25.9 ppg
14.0 rpg
4.15 bpg
3.3 apg
2.0 spg
52.3% FG

Disappeared?

Does that mean Kobe disappeared from 2004-05 through 2006-07? So Kobe had his "prime" cut out for three seasons as well? GTHO with that nonsense.

I disagree. For 2 playoffs he played like Kobe, Duncan and Magic, then he became Dwight Howard for the rest of his 20's.

Look above at his playoff numbers after those 2 "superstar" playoffs until before his 1993-94 le. He was still a superstar player on a team that couldn't beat better teams in the playoffs.

If you can accept his average superstar numbers and lack of winning rings; then you can also accept Dwight Howard as being on Duncan's level.

Nonsensical right there. This is what you call "flashes of brilliance", not their "prime".

First of all, those weren't "average" superstar numbers. They were elite superstar numbers, both regular season and playoffs.

He had two low 20s scoring averages in 1990-91 and 1991-92. He also encountered injuries those two seasons. That broken eye-socket bones in 1990-91, which accompanied a season where the Rockets finally added some more potent perimeter scoring with Kenny Smith and Vernon Maxwell (his first full season with Houston) so that the scoring responsibility wasn't so much on Hakeem. Then he had an irregular heartbeat at the begining of 1991-92, which likely made Hakeem and his coaches a little cautious about him taking on too much. But the rest of his numbers outside of scoring were right on par with his production beforehand.

It's ridiculous to contend Hakeem only showed "flashes of brilliance" during that time period.

Once again, winning takes a team. Hakeem didn't have great teams in those seasons.

Yup, 1 great year, and what did he do the following years? Dwight got to the Finals against the Lakers last year, does that put him in Kobe, Duncan and Magic terirtory?

1 great year? Are you crazy? I already put up what he did in the following years, both in the regular season and the playoffs, and they were superstar numbers.

Once again, do we say that Kobe from 2004-05 though to 2006-07 disappeared and wasn't a superstar and wasn't in his prime? Do we cut out those three years of Kobe's career?

Woohoo, Hakeem put up 37.5 and 17 rpg against Bill Wennington and en-route to losing 3-1. Bill friggin' Wennington.

And since you brought up those Mavs, here's the HoF'er stacked Mavs team the Great Hakeem lost to 1-3.

Mark Aguirre
Derek Harper
Rolando Blackman
Roy Tarpley
Sam Perkins
Detlef Schrempf
James Donaldson
Brad Davis
Uew Blab
Bill Wennington
Jim Farmer
Steve Alford

Bill Wennington played an entire 14 minutes the entire playoffs for the Mavs that post season. He only played 6 of the 17 playoff games. Do you want to continue to lie and spew out blatantly inaccurate information?

Hakeem mostly faced Roy Tarpley, Sam Perkins, and Detlef Schrempf. He probably plaed against James Donaldson more than Bill Wennington.

At any rate, Hakeem's front court teammates that series were Rodney McCray, Robert Reid, and Purvis Short. Ralph Sampson did not play in that series. Think Hakeem got doubled and tripled a little bit that series? McCray, Reid, and Short averaged a combined 22.8 ppg on 37.8% FG shooting. They were averaging just under 8 points each. That was what Hakeem's help in the front court was doing for that series.

Oh, and let's not ignore the fact that the Houston Rockets were 46-36 that season and the Dallas Mavs were 53-29. The Mavs were supposed to win that series.

Rather odd that you would leave out Kobe's Championship years. Oh that's right, Hakeem never had any until 32.

I was actually doing you a favor. Kobe's championship numbers bring his stats down. Here's adding Kobe's playoff numbers from the 2000, 2001, 2002 playoffs:

27.1 ppg
5.2 apg
5.5 rpg
1.52 spg
44.8% FG

The only stat improved by adding Kobe's championship numbers was his rebounding. You should have thanked me for not including his championship numbers. His stats would drop even more if I added his first three post season stats.

And why skew it to per minute stats, the great Hakeem couldn't even get as much floor time as Kobe?

Because it's a more accurate gauge of production. Are you seriously asking that? It's not like Hakeem was playing 24 mpg. I'm just giving the stats a more accurate gauge by making the minutes played a constant.

So while Hakeem was getting bounced 3-1 and taking off during the regular season, Kobe was beasting in both the regular season and Playoffs while bringing home 4 rings.

How is this a comparison again?

Once again, are you prepared to claim that Kobe was not a superstar or in his prime from 2004-05 to 2006-07?

Hakeem's stats during the time period are very much superstar numbers. His playoff numbers during that time before his first le are actually better than Kobe's playoff numbers in Kobe's "prime."

The comparison actually favors Hakeem.

[Allanon]

Disappeared? Now you're just flat-out lying.

From the 1987-88 season to the 1992-93 season, Hakeem averaged:

23.7 ppg
13.1 rpg
3.9 bpg
2.5 apg
2.1 spg
51.1% FG

In those six seasons, he garnered 3 all NBA first team honors, 1 second team honor, 1 third team honor, 3 all NBA defense first team, and 1 all NBA defense second team. He won a DPOY, two rebounding les, and 2 blocked shots les.

Disappeared?

Yup, those numbers look like Dwight. I believe Dwight was DPOY last year too along with All NBA defensive teams; rebounding le, etc. Maybe he's ready to join Kobe, Duncan, Magic and Hakeem.

In the playoffs in those same 6 seasons, he averaged:

25.9 ppg
14.0 rpg
4.15 bpg
3.3 apg
2.0 spg
52.3% FG

Disappeared?

Does that mean Kobe disappeared from 2004-05 through 2006-07? So Kobe had his "prime" cut out for three seasons as well? GTHO with that nonsense.

Ah, Hakeem disappears in the regular season and decides to show up in the Playoffs, after his team gets the low seeds, eh? Consequently ending up with a bunch of 1-3 first round exits.

Look above at his playoff numbers after those 2 "superstar" playoffs until before his 1993-94 le. He was still a superstar player on a team that couldn't beat better teams in the playoffs.

Sure he was a superstar player who played average in the regular season and picked it up in the Playoffs. By coasting through the regular season, he always got lowly seeds.

Why are you ignoring his average season numbers? Free pass?

First of all, those weren't "average" superstar numbers. They were elite superstar numbers, both regular season and playoffs.

I suppose that makes Dwight an elite Superstar then. Good for Hakeem to compare so favorably to Dwight.

He had two low 20s scoring averages in 1990-91 and 1991-92. He also encountered injuries those two seasons. That broken eye-socket bones in 1990-91, which accompanied a season where the Rockets finally added some more potent perimeter scoring with Kenny Smith and Vernon Maxwell (his first full season with Houston) so that the scoring responsibility wasn't so much on Hakeem. Then he had an irregular heartbeat at the begining of 1991-92, which likely made Hakeem and his coaches a little cautious about him taking on too much. But the rest of his numbers outside of scoring were right on par with his production beforehand.

Excuses for the great Hakeem?

It's ridiculous to contend Hakeem only showed "flashes of brilliance" during that time period.

Once again, winning takes a team. Hakeem didn't have great teams in those seasons.

Hakeem had Ralph Sampson, 4 time All-Star with him. Kobe won with 2 time All Star Pau. No excuses please.

1 great year? Are you crazy? I already put up what he did in the following years, both in the regular season and the playoffs, and they were superstar numbers.

Yes superstar numbers. Melo puts up superstar numbers too.

But Kobe, Duncan and Magic are all beyond regular superstars. Hakeem didn't reach his prime until 32, that's when he became a Kobe, Duncan, Magic type player.

Once again, do we say that Kobe from 2004-05 though to 2006-07 disappeared and wasn't a superstar and wasn't in his prime? Do we cut out those three years of Kobe's career?

No, because Kobe had statistically great seasons. 81 points, 62-61. Hakeem never did this even wit the ty team he head. Kobe got 81 points playing with guys like Smush, Luke and Kwame.

Hakeem couldn't get no 81 points playing with the scrubs?

Bill Wennington played an entire 14 minutes the entire playoffs for the Mavs that post season. He only played 6 of the 17 playoff games. Do you want to continue to lie and spew out blatantly inaccurate information?

Hakeem mostly faced Roy Tarpley, Sam Perkins, and Detlef Schrempf. He probably plaed against James Donaldson more than Bill Wennington.

Oh, I'm sorry, James Donaldson (starter most of the games) really has me shaking in my boots. OMFG, how could I confuse the ty Bill Wennington with the Great James Donaldson?

Oh, and let's not ignore the fact that the Houston Rockets were 46-36 that season and the Dallas Mavs were 53-29. The Mavs were supposed to win that series.

Oh, yes, let's make more excuses for Hakeem's failings.

I was actually doing you a favor. Kobe's championship numbers bring his stats down. Here's adding Kobe's playoff numbers from the 2000, 2001, 2002 playoffs:

27.1 ppg
5.2 apg
5.5 rpg
1.52 spg
44.8% FG

The only stat improved by adding Kobe's championship numbers was his rebounding. You should have thanked me for not including his championship numbers. His stats would drop even more if I added his first three post season stats.

Nope, you're wrong. Thank you for pointing it out. Because with your stats now, you can include 4 rings for Kobe and 0 for Hakeem. Thanks!

Because it's a more accurate gauge of production. Are you seriously asking that? It's not like Hakeem was playing 24 mpg. I'm just giving the stats a more accurate gauge by making the minutes played a constant.

You mean skewing numbers for your argument? I understand.

Once again, are you prepared to claim that Kobe was not a superstar or in his prime from 2004-05 to 2006-07?

Hakeem's stats during the time period are very much superstar numbers. His playoff numbers during that time before his first le are actually better than Kobe's playoff numbers in Kobe's "prime."

The comparison actually favors Hakeem.

Actually no it does not. Kobe was the best individual basketball player in those years although his team was weak.

I don't fault Olajuwon if he had statistical individual greatness without winning, but he didin't.

Kobe did.

33 ppg average, 81 points on the Raptors. 62-61 versus the Mavs.

While Hakeem was putting up average superstar numbers, Kobe was breaking records.

Hakeem, in his years prior to the Championship, did nothing that Superstar X doesn't do every year in the NBA.

Try again.

[JamStone]

Why do you look only at scoring to define a superstar? Any other rational person would look at Hakeem's numbers and call him a superstar throughout basically his entire career. It's actually pretty incredible you're really trying to argue that Hakeem didn't hit his prime until 32 years of age. That's what you've been arguing. That was the initial comment that I had issue with. Hakeem's prime didn't start until he was 32. I can't believe you're really standing by that.

But, oh well. It's obvious you're a lost cause. Even a fellow Laker fan called you out.

One thing I will point out is that James Donaldson was an all star in 1988, that season Hakeem faced the Mavs and put up 37.5 and 16.8 in the series. Not exactly Dikembe Mutombo, but an all star, along with Roy Tarpley and Sam Perkins, both of whom played more minutes in the playoffs than Donaldson. Not that it matters with who warped you look at things. But I just wanted to point that out.