Kobe or Hakeem

[Killakobe81]

El nono stay out of this! LOL One last point Vince has Howard and Lebron Shaq so let's do what Kobe has done ...

[wekko368]

Mature.
So you think it's easy to take 30 shots in any game? Do you EVEN play basketball? How many games did AI , MJ, etc take 30 shots? Being a great scorer you will take shots Volume shots (as you call it)

The question you're asking shouldn't be "how many games did AI, MJ, etc take 30 shots?" It's "how many games did AI, MJ, etc take 30 shots and their team won?" Being a volume shooter implies inefficiency. Is scoring 30 points impressive when you take 30 shots?

but it puts pressure on the defense whether you make or miss them ...of course it helps to make them.

Absolutely wrong. The defensive game plan would be to allow the volume shooter (i.e. Iverson) to get his shots while taking his teammates out of the game.

I agree the Finals was not Kobe's most efficient work ...but you have to really "know" the game to see why he was MVP

Apparently, you also have to be biased.

...I'll give you an example. Despite his lack of scoring I still felt Duncan was the Finals vs. the Cavs because he anchored the defense and set the picks, rebounded and scored when called on and set up the opther guys ...it was his "presence" that freed up Parker ...but stats like yourself normally give it to Parker

Sorry, but you're wrong again. The MVP is generally the player that exploits his matchup the most. Both Duncan and Parker had advantageous mismatches against their counterparts, but Parker exploited his far more.

Btw, achoring defense, setting picks, and rebounding are all prerequisites for bigs. Even Gortat did it last year. You're making too much of it.

...I agree big man presence means a lot ...but As good as Gasol is his presence is not equal to Duncan's Kobe's is...because the opposing coach designs their defense to stop him

Really? Man-to-man defense was designed to stop Kobe?

...it wa sKobe fighting for loose balls and knocking down Howard in the clutch ...Kobe passing to Fisher for the OT 3 ...

And had they given the ball to Gasol more frequently, they might not have needed those plays.

To me, the Lakers were aware that Gasol was nearly unstoppable. On the other hand, it was imperative to Kobe that he "lead" the team to a championship. Logically, to exploit Gasol's mismatches, the Lakers should've had him shoot at least 20 shots a game. After all, he is much more efficient than Kobe. However, the Lakers were obviously the better team...so much so that they could allow Kobe to become a high volume shooter and still win. And that's what they did.

[wekko368]

I didnt watch it so it's not relevant.

Actually, it's irrelevant b/c it took place in a different league. You may be able to name a few players overseas who were able to adapt to the NBA game (or vice versa), but for every single player you name that could, I can probably list 5 that couldn't.

When Bonzi was in Houston, he could barely crack the rotation. He went to play in China and scored 50 pts (I think) in his first game.

Point is he made the playoffs and got swept in Mamphis at least two times that I saw ...

And in those series, how good were his teammates? If you're going to put it all on his shoulders, then you must feel his teammates were up to par and he let them down.

It's not like McGrady and Orlando where his teammates were good enough to allow the Magic to go up 3-1 against the Pistons.

Gasol is great we have ALREADY established that ...but without Kobe he was always coming up short Kobe needed him as well no one disagrees here.

Better phrasing would be "Without the Lakers, he was always coming up short". The Lakers roster (aside from Gasol/Kobe) was far superior to any Memphis roster Gasol had.

Point is Kobe is an all-time great Gasol an all-star HUGE difference.

It's a huge difference if we're talking about their respective careers. However, we're talking about a few playoff series so your point is entirely irrelevant.

[ElNono]

El nono stay out of this! LOL One last point Vince has Howard and Lebron Shaq so let's do what Kobe has done ...

LOL

[ambchang]

First, I said COULD BE ... no one knows for sure. And when I say 2nd greatest to MJ that is for players since 1980 SINCE I DID NOT watch basketball BEFORE then I dont compare magic, Kobe MJ Duncan to players I have never sEEN myself NBA Classic games doesnt count because they ALWAYS show those guy's greatest games ...

I could be the greatest NBA player of all time if I start to play tomorrow. What does that mean even? The probability of that happening is close to zero, but it COULD happen. When you say that Kobe COULD be the 2nd greatest player of all time, I am assuming a high level of probability for your statement to actually mean something, but as pointed out, while not impossible, it’s highly improbable that Kobe would end up being the 2nd greatest player of all time.

And you didn’t qualify post 1980, at all. Even if you did, Duncan, Magic, Bird, Shaq, and Hakeem were all obviously better than Kobe.

I could also say duncan can pass Kareem or Hakeem IMHO i doubt it but how do I know how much game and winning Duncan has left he is the greatest PF (if you insist on keepin him there (in my book) 3rd best PF/C To kareem and hakeem but he is not retired yet ...Kobe can definitely pass all the 80 - present guy on that list except maybe MJ and Kareem ...

Duncan is a lot closer to Hakeem than Kobe is to the 2nd greatest player of all time. In fact, Duncan is arguably already better than Hakeem was in terms of team impact. Kobe has almost no chance of passing Magic, Duncan and Shaq.

Bird though great has already been passed and Kobe is closing in on Magic ...
Will he be my favorite player or the people's choice? probably not (i still favor Magic) ...too many haters. But he will have rings and stats to back that up so if you want to argue on either point ...Kobe since 1980 Only trails Magic, Kareem and MJ when you factor in both rings and stats ...Duncan/Shaq/Hakeem/Kobe are all in the same class at this point with les rings and MVP's to back their case.

How do you figure Kobe > Bird? Based on the fact that Bird has 3 straight MVPs and Kobe only 1? Finals MVP? Bird being one of the best passers in the history of the game? Based on how they perform under pressure?

How has Bird, Duncan and Shaq been any less in terms of rings and stats? Why would Kobe take sole credit for a team accomplishment like rings? Especially when he was clearly “only” the 2nd best player on 3 of the 4 le teams? Why does Kobe not get penalized for missing more playoffs than Duncan, Magic and Bird combined when he gets credit for rings?