Please, some people wait until the ASB to start panicking. They will come up with more excuses. By then, it is too late. I can live with the defense sucking early on in the season, and it has improved. That is a plus. However, the Spurs are ting bricks against quality teams and turn the ball over unnecessaarily, throwing the ball more than twice into the stands. That is a thumbs down and shows signs of serious problems. You argue that the have no chemistry when people who played more than one season on the Spurs were the ones throwing the ball away when passing to the franchise, Tim Duncan. Tell me they have chemistry with Duncan. I don't see Dice or Jefferson throwing the ball away unnecessary when passing the ball.
I said first twenty games, and I am not wrong. We had a 12-8 start in 99. You see the current Spurs finish strong? We had the lead against Denver and choked big time. With the current core, 05/07, the Spurs started strong and ended strong, so I don't see why 99/03 are even necessary in this argument.
What exactly do you attribute the TOs to, if it is not a chemistry issue? Is it the usual "they aren't trying hard enough" cry? Or do you think Pop doesn't make them practice hard enough?
I've played ball for 20 years and, if you've played any ball, you'd know that it takes a while to get to know the people you are playing with. At the pro level that's a lot more difficult due to the complexity of the game and the excellence of the players. Also, I've seen teams of individually substandard players beat living out of teams of far more individually talented players who haven't played together before - that's the value of chemistry.
These growing pains are painful and frustrating, but we are trying to integrate 7 new players into a complex system that no longer revolves around Tim as it once did. It's a difficult process. Please tell me what you'd change if you could.
12-8 is an average start, not a fast one, and we are currently 9-8 and could easily be at 12-8 or 12-9 in a few games - in fact, I'm sure we will be either 12-8 or 12-9. You are the one who brought 99/03 into the argument with your post above.
"You see the current Spurs finish strong?" Can you not read? The point I've made all along is that I don't know, the team hasn't been together long enough to judge. There are 65 games to go! And Spurs teams have looked awful at times during past championship seasons. Do you remember mid Jan-mid Feb of 2007? I was in SA and we were horrible at the time. Pop tweaked things and the team came together on the RRT.
And how complex is the "system"? We have the ever redundant 2 man games between Duncan and Parker and everyone else stands like a statue ready to receive a bailout pass and shoot the 3. Then we have 4 down, where again everyone else s bricks again and stands around like a statue ready to shoot a 3. Brilliant. No wonder the ball is not going into the basket. The sad part was Tony Parker seeing a fly in the stands and throws the ball to the stands because he shat bricks when trying to make a bailout pass after dribbling the ball for 20 seconds. And the new players are the ones making good cuts to the basket and getting easy layups. Blair makes Mason's life easy when Mason is handling the ball, Dice usually knows where he should be, I don't see him up either. Jefferson is the only one who usually stands around but he is doing some cutting too during motion offense where the Spurs have trouble with because Ginobili is no longer as good as he was. These guys catch passes really good so what is wrong with our big three?What exactly do you attribute the TOs to, if it is not a chemistry issue? Is it the usual "they aren't trying hard enough" cry? Or do you think Pop doesn't make them practice hard enough?
I've played ball for 20 years and, if you've played any ball, you'd know that it takes a while to get to know the people you are playing with. At the pro level that's a lot more difficult due to the complexity of the game and the excellence of the players. Also, I've seen teams of individually substandard players beat living out of teams of far more individually talented players who haven't played together before - that's the value of chemistry.
These growing pains are painful and frustrating, but we are trying to integrate 7 new players into a complex system that no longer revolves around Tim as it once did. It's a difficult process. Please tell me what you'd change if you could.
You know what? This is what I hope happens. Not such suck ass performance like 2009 and it is happening again. It was BG_Spurs_fan who brought up the slow start and an average start is not slow.
So, yeah, you're having a good , but what exactly would you change if you could? You'd stop the team turning the ball over? Wouldn't we all. But they have to do that for themselves by getting to know each other. Basketball at any level is a game of precision, and that is what comes with time and chemistry. A basketball team in sync is like a fine Swiss watch - at the moment we're a Casio.
If I were good enough, I would be Popovich. Apparently, you are not him either so you wouldn't know what to do either. I was just arguing that the system is not as complex now as it was in years' past and compared to the rest of the contenders because you are the one who brought up the system.
Yeah, but what would you actually change? What are you advocating for? Firing Pop? Trading someone? Whipping the players during 3 a day practices? What?
You're frustrated that we lost two games by choking at the end. So am I. So are the vast majority of Spurs players. I'm just arguing that that doesn't mean the Apocalypse is upon is because it's too early to see whether this team is ultimately going to be any good.
If we go 10-3 from here to the end of December, how will you feel about the team? I reckon they'll go 10-3.
Except that you're trying to fit your opinion around false data, which makes it even funnier.
A brief look back to early december 2002 would show you that the Spurs were standing at a 9-10 record and playing pretty badly, with much worse problems and less talent ( more like experience ) than this year's team. In 1999 we started with a 6-8 record. Both pretty bad records for a supposed le candidate, not average at all. Average is what we have this year. People who know better don't about the record and see where things need improving. Without a doubt there are lots of things to be done, but to constantly only because we've started with an average record is foolish and something that could only be expected from the new age Spurs fans.
Record in 20 games is false data? Gotcha. Wait, did we even win in 2002? If I remember, the Lakers spanked everyone and won the le, smart guy.
Dude get your act together if you're going to engage in a proper discussion. We won the le in 2003, which is the season that started in november 2002, thus my reference to our december 2002 record - it's the same season 2002/2003, get it? And if you're so intent on having the record after exactly 20 games, which I don't get why, then it was exactly 10 and 10.
I was intent on getting the record for 20 games because there were posters who said,
"Oh give the team 20 games, they would get their act by then." Or something like that. With all the offensive firepower unlike 2003, we should not be sucking that much, we are not the Toronto Raptors, we play something resembling defense. I am sorry, I just woke up and did not realise my mistake.
Fair enough, no one is saying the Spurs are playing championship level basketball right now, but historically this team has proven to be able to overcome early season issues and come strong at the right time. There is a lot of work to be done and a lot of time - more than 60 games, so the excessive whining is unnecessary.
Last edited by BG_Spurs_Fan; 12-07-2009 at 06:36 AM.
If we accept this at face value, what changes do you propose to improve the situation?
You say the Spurs are putting off doing some required work. Could you be more specific as to what these required tasks are?
Otherwise, this thread just seems to be an excuse to bash anyone calling for patience.
Stop being so sloppy? Yes, this thread is to bash people who just love to make excuses. Ya, only the Spurs are in December now and the rest of the teams came in from another space time fabric. We will 7 players to integrate, I am not buying this excuse. The Mavs have 6 players to integrate. Orlando introduced Vince Carter, Brandon Bass, Ryan Anderson, a rejuvenated Jason Williams and they also have an unhappy Marcin Gortat to deal with. They also have to deal with the loss of Hedo Turklogu. They also deal with injuries from Nelson and Carter. To say the Spurs situation is unique and very special is another made up excuse by Spurs fans looking for some sympathy.
First it was, "It's only November".-Ok, fine.
Now it is, "It's only December, wait until the end of December."- we will see.
Later we will see, "It is only January, the team will get going by the RRT."
So you're comfortable bashing people who advise patience when you can offer nothing more than "stop being so sloppy"?
OK
Ya, I know. It's only December. The system is complex. We have 7 players to integrate. Matt Bonner sucks. Finley needs to be traded. Let us start another "Trade 'Fill in blank' for 'Fill in blank'" thread.
Excuses and trying to make a role player a scapegoat, especially Bonner when our stars except for Duncan show up every game. People are not bashing Parker and Ginobili for piss poor play. Parker should be in rhythm the most because he played in the summer and Ginobili is not himself anymore so people are giving him the free pass because he will be back and I hope he will be back.
If that's what you're worrying about, have a coke and a smile, man. Turnovers are caused by exactly the sort of growing pains teams have when they gut their rosters. As an extreme example, think of when Manu first came to the team: he dished to the floor seats all the time. Why? Because nobody knew where they were supposed to be for his kinds of passes. The same thing is happening now with the new guys, half due to their unfamiliarity with the system, and half due to their unfamiliarity with each other.
Pop said there were no drills for decreasing turnovers, but I think there is one: playing together and learning where to be to maximize each other's strengths.
I'm still confused as to the point you are trying to make. You've listed a bunch of different excuses that some people make, many of which are mutually exclusive.
Then you list, it seems, some excuses that aren't mentioned but that you think should be (Parker and Manu).
Where are you on this? Is it just that some excuses are worse than others? Is it that you think some players are getting a free pass? (I think there's plenty of Tony bashing going on, btw).
To be clear, I would absolutely agree that bashing a role player for poor play when some of team's best players are underperforming is wrong. It seems to me, however, that the people doing that are a different set of posters from those preaching patience.
So I go back to your "procrastination" post where you provided a definition for this thread and I ask you that provide some details. What are the tasks which the Spurs, collectively and individually, have put off for tomorrow instead of addressing today?
Pop is not playing the guys he was supposed to be playing and makes weird subs utions. He wants the players to gain chemistry, especially in crunch time. He can't do that without playing Dice and getting no plays for Jefferson. Those two players have to be involved if the Spurs have any shot at winning the Larry O'Brien trophy. Those preaching patience do not know even know why they are saying "It's only December." I agree the chemistry is going to come but if the stars are playing like , we aren't going to even get past the first round. Our stars are playing like average starters. Yes, I am talking about Parker and Ginobili. They talk about the system and who does the system revolve around? The Big Three currently. If they are not playing to their standards, how are the role players supposed to follow suit.
I am not even calling for firing Pop like some people like to accuse me of, the "system" needs to be revised. And revised does not mean an overhaul.
And on the exclusive excuses, those are jack that championship contenders never make. Excuses make the mistakes unresolvable. If the Spurs are championship contenders, all these excuses should never used.
I'm not giving RJ a free pass for his play, because he's been almost non-existent thus far, but it's frustrating seeing him cut to the basket and not get the pass considering that is his strength and that is exactly what he should be doing. Or seeing Blair set a pick and have an open lane to the basket and not get the pass.
And I'm getting sick of seeing Parker drive, back out, drive, back out, drive, back out, pass, and then some poor guy has to chuck up a contested last second shot. Parker needs to be agressive and attack the rim, that's his game. But if it isn't there, set up the offense and give some time to execute. If people start making shots, then the lane will be there for Tony.
Well, that makes a bit more sense.
I would agree that the team's chances are poor if the stars play like average players. I'm not sure why you seem comfortable with being patient for the chemistry to develop, but you seem less patient for the stars to revert to form. That's really no big deal, I appreciate you trying to clarify your point and, at least this time, I'm not looking to dispute your point only to understand it.
Then there is next question for Spurs fans. What if the stars don't/can't revert to form? What if the key new players don't/can't become useful contributors? The team will have a very rough season. What does a Spurs fan do when that day comes and the Spurs are clearly not a championship contender?
This is an infinite loop or rather, "Which comes first? The chicken or the egg."
Which one do you think comes first? From what I see, the role players are limited in what they do which is why they are role players and can't create to save their lives (Yes, why are some idiots even criticising that part of their game, I got no idea) and need Parker to step his game up. And I am sick of seeing Parker doing that. Now, he is unable to get to the rim without the help of a pick.
Parker played all summer so he should clearly be in rhythm. As for Ginobili, I think he maybe is done. I also think the FO understood that and tried to bring in more firepower in Richard Jefferson.
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