A Big Problem Everyone is Overlooking: Timmy is No Longer Drawing Double Teams

[HarlemHeat37]

Duncan doesn't draw them as well as he used to, but it's not a huge factor..

we're still getting A LOT of wide open 3s..Bonner had 5 wide open 3s vs. Denver, WIDE open..we had at least 4 open 3s from the corners..getting open shots hasn't been a problem at all..

A couple of people have been on here..exstatic is right about Tony, elnono is right that we brought in weapons for a reason..there are many factors here..Duncan's play hasn't been a reason for losses, he's been great on both ends..

BTW, Tim was being double teamed vs. Denver, and he still does receive doubles from certain teams..it hasn't changed anything for us this season..

[ElNono]

Denver is simply not a good defensive team. They've never been, and I don't expect them to become one now. I think the Celtics game was more representative of what we're up against, as far as challenges to our offense. And I think TD did good there, overall. Obviously, I expect both the Celtics and the Spurs to improve even more as the season goes on.

[Dalamar_the_Dark]

Duncan resting for off-season cause his knee is not 100%.

[Dalamar_the_Dark]

Denver is simply not a good defensive team. They've never been, and I don't expect them to become one now. I think the Celtics game was more representative of what we're up against, as far as challenges to our offense. And I think TD did good there, overall. Obviously, I expect both the Celtics and the Spurs to improve even more as the season goes on.

Erm... Denver may not be a lockdown defensive team. But tell you what they are a good defensive team. Just not one which settles for half court offense. You tell me that a frontline of Nene, Carmelo and Anderson isnt good?

Also, theyve got Billups, JR Smith and Lawson. That isnt all that bad on the defensive end.

Seriously if you think Denver sucks playing defense. You havent been following the NBA. Denver has improved a lot over the past 2 seasons.

[ElNono]

Erm... Denver may not be a lockdown defensive team. But tell you what they are a good defensive team. Just not one which settles for half court offense. You tell me that a frontline of Nene, Carmelo and Anderson isnt good?

Also, theyve got Billups, JR Smith and Lawson. That isnt all that bad on the defensive end.

Seriously if you think Denver sucks playing defense. You havent been following the NBA. Denver has improved a lot over the past 2 seasons.

Hmmm, ok. I'll take your word for it.

[LOL@MavsFan]

Parker and Manu can create for themselves. Tim is still finding the open shooters. The shooters caan't hit a shot against good teams it seems.

I agree with that. Tim should have at 6-7 assists a game, but they are constantly missing the open shots. I also agree TP and Manu can create their own shots. Manu needs to stop playing tentatively already though I can understand why. He is useless to us if he isn't in attack mode when he is in the game. Parker looks like a rook out there w/ all the TOs. Chemistry is obviously a problem w/ him.

[phxspurfan]

TP doesn't have a J anymore... that hurts his penetration big time since he has been invited to shoot and faled to deliver since the very beginning of the season...

It's not that he doesn't have the J, he doesn't have the legs right now.



And if George Hill hadn't come along this well to back him up, we'd be in a real hole right now (below .500).

[EmptyMan]

TD just settles for long-jumpers these days

Let's surround the 3 pt. line and let Timmy work inside. Wait. What's this. Timmy just shot another 15 footer with no one to even rebound inside because they are all on the 3 pt line.

Brilliant pop. ing brilliant.

[lefty]

He doesn't draw as many double teams because he is not getting as many touches

Considering that he is not 100% yet, the offense is running through other guys

[picc84]

1. Duncan was working great against one on one coverage against Boston and Denver. From what I saw the Spurs just stopped getting him the ball in scoring position and were using him to screen on the perimeter and direct the offense from the elbow of the paint.

2. If Duncan isnt drawing double teams, is there really any point to having Finley and Bonner on the floor? I dont think there is.

[Mal]

Duncan is drawing double teams, but not as many as it was in the past. He still draw help defens, but ball movement is up right now, so there are least open spots for shooters. Duncan never had 5-6 assist per game. But he his passes where first in whole ball movement sequence. Now Parker often stops this sequence and and tries do something alone.

Good ball movement can create Jefferson space to drive to basket, shooters to shoot, Parker,Gino,Duncan to play 1 on 1, on which they are still great.

[lotr1trekkie]

Tony is preoccupied with the fact that Tiger invited Eva to be part of his worldwide harem.

[duhoh]

Timmy is no longer drawing double teams because teams know they can't sag off on our shooters or the offense will start rolling, it is not because Tim can't draw double teams anymore because he is not good enough. The 3 point shot is a lot more important for every offense and without it, a team would suck, see 76ers.

you want to leave bonner, mason, finley, manu, and soon hill wide open?

[Josepatches_]

I don't think people who really understand the Spurs fail to realize that. It's one of the reasons Dallas beat us in 2006. They were willing to let Tim put up huge numbers and take that damage to keep the 3 point shooters from firing. The Spurs study this , and what it boils down to is the most efficient shot in basketball is the corner 3.
What you fail to realize is that while the team revolves around Tim, the offense hasn't since 2007. It's Tony's ballgame now, scoringwise, and one of the main reasons we are struggling is because the little decided it was more important to play for France than rest and work out lightly this summer and come in fresh. He's looked awful this year and is shooting 30 percentage points lower than this time most years, around 47%. That's bad when the team is counting on 50-51% and you're losing games that are coming down to the wire in the 4th.

We aren't a championship team since that.
In 2007 TD was the leading scorer in the playoffs.TP takes that role in the Finals but we were much better than the Cavs.




About double team on TD. If TD were taking 20 shots per game it would be important but if he only takes 12 like Saturday teams don't need to double team him.

He's still unstoppable one on one by most teams of the NBA but post plays aren't our first play now.Pick & roll after pick & roll and TD in the top of the key.We only use TD in the low post when our offense suck.

Since TD isn't our first way to score we aren't a tle contender.We still were a good team but every year we are worse because Manu and Tim are getting older so they have more injuries.

Right now we are near to be a lottery team.Next year we will be.

Teams around a scoring-first PG aren't good enough to win all.He can score 30,40 or 50 but teammates are out of the game.

[Galileo]

Let me say I am not trying to single out Tim as the problem. He has easily been the most consistent and valuable player on the team, and he is still arguably the best big man in the game.

However, he's slipped to the point where teams no longer have to constantly double him. We saw this against the Mavs in last year's playoffs, and we've seen it this yeah as well for the most part.

In the past, failing to double up on Tim basically meant conceding a 35-40 point night on a great shooting percentage.

Now? Most teams elect to play him straight up and give him his 20 or so on 50% shooting. (They are probably especially thrilled by Timmy's move away from the low-post. He's not going to scare teams shooting jumpers all night.)

What is the result? Fewer open threes for limited offensive players. No more swinging it to the weakside for easy buckets after Timmy is doubled. An entire offense built around Tim's ability to draw double-teams is out of sync.

The Spurs now need more creative ways to get their offense going than just dumping it in to Timmy. They can still give him the ball, and he'll score with a decent percentage. But it doesn't propel the entire team offense.

Now we are seeing how badly the team needs a playmaker. It's now clear how much Tony lacks in this area. For so many years, the respect Timmy commanded from other teams was enough to get the offense rolling. The other players did not have to create as much on their own. Their deficiencies were hidden by Tim. Now they are being exposed.

If the Suns didn't have to constantly double Timmy, for instance, the Spurs would have always lost to them.

It's becoming clear how much Tim means to the team, and his decline on both the offensive and defensive end has been a bigger factor in the team's overall slippage than anything else. The Spurs minus Tim now are probably as good as the Spurs minus Tim have been this decade, if not better (in spite of all the complaints). But not good enough to compensate for Tim's decline.

This sounds good, until you consider that our offensive rating is getting better, and our defense is the problem.

And Tim's offensive rating is getting better, but his defensive rating is getting worse.

The reality is that Bruce Bowen was a Hall-of-Fame calibur player who never got his due. Bowen belongs in the Hall. The whole time we were winning rings, Bowen was our second best player.

[SA210]

in any case it's better than saying his opinion sucks without any substantive refute. what are you in 3rd grade?

edit: i'm not saying that i disagree or agree with what's in your sig, but it's hard to for me to believe that you even know the full extent of their meaning with the analytical skills you've demonstrated. tool.

[portnoy1]

We can all see Tims decline. He's older and less mobile on both ends of the court. However a good playmaker at the PG position can cover over alot of things. For instance Steve Nash makes amare a much better player and they run the same set as the spurs that high pick n roll /spread the floor. However something that all the good PG's do is set up their Post-players and put them in better positions to score. Celtics Rondo runs pick n roll with Pierce gets the switch AND THEN passes the ball to Pierce midpost. The same is true of Calderon/Bargnani- CP3/West -Nash/Dirk back in the day. If Parker looks to feed Tim Duncan on the block with a 6-2 guy on him then tim will either go for 40pts on 75% shooting or the other team will have to double. I'm guessing the latter.

[jdev82]

Let me say I am not trying to single out Tim as the problem. He has easily been the most consistent and valuable player on the team, and he is still arguably the best big man in the game.

However, he's slipped to the point where teams no longer have to constantly double him. We saw this against the Mavs in last year's playoffs, and we've seen it this yeah as well for the most part.

In the past, failing to double up on Tim basically meant conceding a 35-40 point night on a great shooting percentage.

Now? Most teams elect to play him straight up and give him his 20 or so on 50% shooting. (They are probably especially thrilled by Timmy's move away from the low-post. He's not going to scare teams shooting jumpers all night.) have you watched the last two games there, dumbass?

What is the result? Fewer open threes for limited offensive players. No more swinging it to the weakside for easy buckets after Timmy is doubled. An entire offense built around Tim's ability to draw double-teams is out of sync.

The Spurs now need more creative ways to get their offense going than just dumping it in to Timmy. They can still give him the ball, and he'll score with a decent percentage. But it doesn't propel the entire team offense.

Now we are seeing how badly the team needs a playmaker. It's now clear how much Tony lacks in this area. For so many years, the respect Timmy commanded from other teams was enough to get the offense rolling. The other players did not have to create as much on their own. Their deficiencies were hidden by Tim. Now they are being exposed.

If the Suns didn't have to constantly double Timmy, for instance, the Spurs would have always lost to them.

It's becoming clear how much Tim means to the team, and his decline on both the offensive and defensive end has been a bigger factor in the team's overall slippage than anything else. The Spurs minus Tim now are probably as good as the Spurs minus Tim have been this decade, if not better (in spite of all the complaints). But not good enough to compensate for Tim's decline.

did you watch the last two games there, dumbass?

[ajh18]

I think another reason teams are willing to cover time one-on-one instead of doubling is simply that he's playing fewer minutes and taking fewer shots. You can cover Tim one-on-one knowing that no matter how much he's torching his defender, Pop HAS to limit his minutes for the majority of the season, meaning that Tim's opportunity to dominate will just naturally go down.

In previous seasons, if Tim got rolling you'd risk letting him do his thing and put up 18 shots, hitting at over a 50% clip, and pulling down 12 boards and 3 blocks in like 40 minutes. Now, with his mpg down to the lowest of his career at 32, and with his shot attempts at their lowest at 13.7, the damage you risk him doing with one-on-one coverage is a lot less.

[Chomag]

Yeah your opinion would be then.

Very insightful. I used to talk like this....





In middle school.

[HarlemHeat37]

Some points..

-Duncan's defense has been great since he returned from injury about a month ago..the team's defense has been great as well..whoever said the offense has been going up and the defense has been going down is wrong..

the offense was ranked 3rd in the NBA following the Raptors game..it is now ranked 11th..the defense was ranked 28th in the NBA following the Raptors game..it is now ranked 12th(it was 10th to begin yesterday)..

Duncan plays defense like a C now..he's no longer mobile enough to come out and be an elite defender on the p&r and off screens, most Cs aren't great at that..his defense on PGs isn't his fault either, it's usually the perimeter D's fault..

Look at the Lakers for instance..Bynum and Gasol aren't great defenders, far from it, but they're both good..they're both mobile and long..the Lakers ALWAYS get torched by other PGs though, because Fisher can't defend anybody..the defense starts on the perimeter, as everybody should see with the hole Bowen's departure has left the last 2 seasons(lack of playing time last season, obviously)..

-Since he returned from injury, Duncan's putting up numbers that he used to put up at the end of his prime..while he obviously isn't as good as he was in his prime, clearly there's another factor here if he's still able to do this..either some others need to step up, or maybe he should be getting the ball even more..

-Duncan is actually taking less Js than he did in his last MVP season, so I don't know why somebody would say he's playing inside less..

2009-2010: 56% of his shots have been Js, 45% of his shots inside the paint..
2008-2009: 57%-43%..
2007-2008: 55%-45%..
2006-2007: 51-49%..
2005-2006: 56-44..
2004-2005: 58-42..
2003-2004: 56-44..
2002-2003: 60-40..

It really hasn't made a difference..Duncan is actually shooting 50.5% off his jump shot this year, which is BY FAR the best in his career..he's visibly improved his J, as everybody can see, and he's brought back the bank shot for good, which has been $ this year..