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I didn't know he was reguarded.
Whenever a poll comes out as to who the best GMs are, Joe is always at the top. Even last year when they traded Billups, the hot talk was Lebron was going to Detroit so he could play on Dumars' team because he is such a genius. Why? He put together a couple good teams, but he has some major blunders.
He picked Darko over Bosh, Wade, and Carmelo.
He traded Billups for what would become Ben Gordon, basically tanking the 2008-09 season
Most of his draft picks in recent years aren't even on the Pistons anymore: Aflallo, Amir Johnson, Carlos Delfino to name a couple
I didn't know he was reguarded.
Barbosa trying and failing to "reguard".
I FAIL at spelling
Is Danny Ferry regarded as a great GM?
How bout Kupchak?
tee, hee.
I'm not sure people consider him a good GM anymore. At least they shouldn't because he's horrible. I know he got a lot of praise for constructing that championship team but it's really been nothing but mistakes for him ever since then.
no, he isn't and I don't think he should be. But I don't understand why Dumars is. The guy for the Lakers is, dude in Oklahoma City is good, but Dumars is middle of the road just like FerryIs Danny Ferry regarded as a great GM?
The mother er can't even spell, which is nothing new...I didn't know he was reguarded.
How good would this Pistons be if they took Wade, Bosh or Carmelo in 2003? They could have been one of the biggest dynasties since Jordan. They were in the Conference Finals for like 5 years without those guys, not reason they couldn't have won the East and a couple more rings with one of them.
Dumars has made plenty of mistakes, and several of them huge, huge mistakes. He deserves as much criticism as he does praise.
But, it still stands that he built a championship team without a franchise superstar player, without a max player. His two leaders and most important players on that team (Billups and Ben Wallace) were both MLE players. There is no other GM over the last 30 years in the NBA who can claim they were able to build a le winning team the way Dumars did. That carries quite a bit of weight.
That's why. He's not perfect. He's made some mind-boggling, bone-headed moves. But, he also crafted and constructed the most impressive and most improbable championship team since probably the 1979 Seattle Sonics. Dumars is also seen as forward thinking, a big picture GM who doesn't make moves simply for an immediate result, but for long term results. Trading Billups for what amounts to Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva doesn't look good right now, but neither did trading the then franchise Jerry Stackhouse for a skinny Rip Hamilton who didn't play defense. The Tigers traded John Smoltz for Doyle Alexander, who helped the Tigers get into the playoffs in 1987. It was viewed as a good trade at the time for the Tigers. Can't really accurately evaluate the Billups trade for several years.
Dumars does get some unwarranted praise as a great GM. In truth, he's a pretty good GM who makes his share of mistakes, just like pretty much every other GM in the league. But, Dumars' downfall might be because the fact he often gets free passes by the media and even much of the Pistons fanbase because of that. Perhaps overconfidence in his abilities as GM and as a forward thinker, perhaps hubris, perhaps out-thinking himself. But, then again, take a look around the league and you might find 2-3 GMs who are clearly better than Dumars. The rest haven't done squat either and have also made their share of mistakes.
That's adorable, Jam.
That's assuming a lot. And, there is no point in bringing up Wade or Bosh. It was either Darko and Carmelo and every GM in the league then would have only those two choices as well. Those were the two choices and those two alone. And, there were plenty of NBA GMs who would have chosen Darko as well.
And, even if the Pistons chose Carmelo, it's assuming too much to think they would have become a dynasty. First of all, Larry Brown would have sat Carmelo's ass down just like he did for the 2004 Olympics. Carmelo wouldn't have become the stud nearly as quickly because he wouldn't have seen as much PT, as much touches, and he would have had a quick hook on him. Plus, Larry Brown loooooooved Tayshaun Prince. And, if they figured a way to play Carmelo at PF, then the Pistons might not have traded for Rasheed Wallace. No Rasheed Wallace, no championship, definitely no dynasty.
You have to understand that making a different draft selection also changes the rest of the season for the Pistons. And, even with Carmelo, no matter how much you want to argue it, there's no guarantee of a le, in 2004 or afterward.
Stupid pick definitely, as you had 4 all-star talents who were clearly ready to contribute at that level right away in James, Anthony, Bosh, and Wade. Still, how can you not be impressed that he took a one-man team that lost that one guy in 2000 to a le only 4 years later? That one horrible pick doesn't even begin to erase taking what was maybe the worst situation in the league and turning it into a le. The 99-00 Pistons were a horrible team without Grant Hill. That whole roster was complete trash outside of him. What Dumars did was equivalent to someone walking into Charlotte and making them into the Celtics.
As for the Billups trade, he knew they weren't winning a le and that Chauncey was getting old. Dumars knew exactly what he was doing in trading for an expiring contract in Iverson.
but if you just think that if that pick they owned happened to be in the top 5 in any spot other than the #2 spot that it was, they would have fallen into a future Hall of Famer. Like going into it, if you had a top 5 pick in 2003 you had a 80% chance at getting a future NBA great, yet the #2 pick was the one that didn't pan out.
I know. I understand the Darko pick, I really do because I remember his hype. But, I still don't get the Billups trade. He traded him because his is old, but he traded him to basically turn a 6th man into a starter and a star player. That is what I don't get. I could see if he traded him to clear room and he signed Bosh or Wade or something, but he got Ben Gordon. He traded an All Star who was getting old for a guy who might make a single All Star game his whole career if everything goes well
Now you're talking about luck. I didn't argue that the Darko pick was good. It was a horrible pick, very likely as bad as any high lottery pick in the history of the NBA draft. Now, you're talking about changing the Pistons' "luck" when you're criticizing Joe Dumars as a GM.
I'm telling you right now that at the time of the 2003 NBA Draft, every NBA GM would have told you that if they had the #2 pick after LeBron got drafted, they would have either chosen Carmelo or Darko. There were no other possibilities. So lamenting over Wade or Bosh is moot; criticizing Joe for not selecting Wade or Bosh not relevant. It was a mistake, a huge mistake. And Dumars should never get a pass for it. It could have been huge for the Pistons. But, it still would not have guaranteed a le, much less a dynasty.
BTW, on tangent, you think Chris Bosh is a future Hall of Famer?
I think it turned out to be a decent move. You're not going to get a young all-star for an old one, and saving capspace for 2010 would be disastrous because they would have been competing with New York, New Jersey, Miami, Chicago, and lots of other teams clearing room for next summer.
So you disagree with him not re-signing Ben Wallace to that $60 million contract in 2006, for example?
The problem with the Darko pick is that it was based only on potential.
It's a huge gamble; the Dirk and Bargnana picks were only based on potential too, because there was som much to develop, but they turned out to be better players than Darko (especially Dirk)
It's a gamble; it has worked out for Nellie and Colie, but no for Joe.
Of course, Nellie and Colie have more epxerience than Joe as GM's
Dumars traded Billups a year too late, but he had no choice. We didn't have Stucky available yet, and we didn't know if he would work out in the 1st place. Billups lost his drive here. He had no desire to go into the paint. He completely bought into the Mr. Bigshot hype, despite not hitting a really big shot in years. He kept collapsing in the playoffs. He had issues with some other players (C-Webb).
He needed a change of scenery. We needed to rebuild. There was even a slim chance in the Iverson thing was going to work. It may have worked, if AI wasn't AI... Now we have a myriad of guards who do what AI was supposed to. We have no true PG, but we didn't have one in 2003 either. Billups took what Carlisle and Brown taught him and became a floor general.
The Pistons were not going anywhere with Billups as the 'star'.
The Pistons weren't going to sign Wade or Bosh or LeBron, and Dumars knew that. Dumars also knew the Pistons were no longer le contenders in 2008-09. He should have known that they weren't after the 2005-06 season.
The Billups trade had many layers to it. It wasn't just trading Billups for Iverson or trading Billups for cap space. It was about breaking up the core group of players that had become stale and dispassionate. It was about looking long-term instead of trying to contend for one more season. Ben Gordon isn't Chauncey Billups and Charlie Villanueva isn't Rasheed Wallace. But in two years when Ben and Charlie in the middle of their contract, Billups is probably done and Rasheed is probably retired. Dumars was looking long-term. And, with any luck (for the Pistons), Ben Gordon and Charlie Villanueva out-perform their contracts like Billups and Ben Wallace and Antonio McDyess did before them. Gordon and Villanueva are both in their mid-20s. They have a chance to become better players, and that's probably what Dumars is hoping and banking on. Will it happen? Maybe not, probably not. But, moves had to be made. The Pistons can't sign the LeBrons and Wades and Amares. They don't have the juice or appeal to do so. But, changes still had to be made less the Pistons go through another teal era...
You are right that it was a gamble. I would have taken the trade with Memphis for Pau. But there is no guarantee the Pistons would have won the le.
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