Why is Joe Dumars reguarded as a great GM?

[baseline bum]

Normally I can't fault a team drafting on potential, but 2003 was no normal draft. It's pretty rare you come into a draft and can pinpoint 4 players ready to play at an all-star level right away. I hated that pick right away when they made it.

[Thunder Dan]

Now you're talking about luck. I didn't argue that the Darko pick was good. It was a horrible pick, very likely as bad as any high lottery pick in the history of the NBA draft. Now, you're talking about changing the Pistons' "luck" when you're criticizing Joe Dumars as a GM.

I'm telling you right now that at the time of the 2003 NBA Draft, every NBA GM would have told you that if they had the #2 pick after LeBron got drafted, they would have either chosen Carmelo or Darko. There were no other possibilities. So lamenting over Wade or Bosh is moot; criticizing Joe for not selecting Wade or Bosh not relevant. It was a mistake, a huge mistake. And Dumars should never get a pass for it. It could have been huge for the Pistons. But, it still would not have guaranteed a le, much less a dynasty.


BTW, on tangent, you think Chris Bosh is a future Hall of Famer?

I know, but when people say "Great GM" aren't they taking about their ability to make the right picks? I realize that most every GM would have taken Darko, but a great GM would be able to see past that and pick a guy like Carmelo, Bosh and Wade. Like in football, the great GMs are guys who can draft all stars in the 6th round and don't miss with their first picks no matter who they are passing up. Like the Texans passing on the greatest running back of all time for Mario Williams, how did that work out? That is what great GMs can do and that is why I say Dumars is middle of the road but not great

[resistanze]

Only like 8 franchises have won a championship in the last 29 years or so. GMs in this league pass through a revolving door. Bottom line, GMs the build championship teams usually get free passes.

[JamStone]

Normally I can't fault a team drafting on potential, but 2003 was no normal draft. It's pretty rare you come into a draft and can pinpoint 4 players ready to play at an all-star level right away. I hated that pick right away when they made it.

LeBron and Carmelo were the only two sure things (and Darko as thought by so many GMs and scouts). Bosh was not viewed as ready to play at an all star level right away. He was a 6-10, 200 lbs hybrid PF/C who had a lot of questions about him as well. He also came out as a freshman out of GT. It's not like he had an impressive college resume. And Wade was considered a combo guard in the bad sense, too short to legitimately play the 2-guard but not a pure point guard. Still viewed as a great young prospect, but not seen as one who would be an immediate all star. I still remember reading how Pat Riley was pissed that Bosh went the pick ahead because that's who he really wanted and Riley wasn't all that excited about drafting Wade.

Looking back in retrospect often changes what really was going on at the time...

[Venti Quattro]

A GM that brings his team to the conference finals for 6 straight years is ... sorta great for me.

[JamStone]

I know, but when people say "Great GM" aren't they taking about their ability to make the right picks? I realize that most every GM would have taken Darko, but a great GM would be able to see past that and pick a guy like Carmelo, Bosh and Wade. Like in football, the great GMs are guys who can draft all stars in the 6th round and don't miss with their first picks no matter who they are passing up. Like the Texans passing on the greatest running back of all time for Mario Williams, how did that work out? That is what great GMs can do and that is why I say Dumars is middle of the road but not great

If that's your definition of a "great" GM, that's cool. I'm not the one who outlines the characteristics and traits that are necessary for every single person to consider a GM "great."

How about this: Over the last decade, can you name 5 NBA GMs who have clearly done a better job than Joe Dumars? That includes those who are no longer GMs now. Name 5 who clearly have done better jobs as NBA GMs. You have probably well over 50 GMs to choose from with firings and hirings (I'm guessing), perhaps more.

Maybe you can. But, I think you'd be hard pressed to do so. I think that's how I'd probably define a "great" GM, by comparing what that particular GM has done to what other GMs have done. Really off the top of my head, RC Buford might be the only one who "clearly" has done a better job. Edit: And of course Jerry West...

Look at a guy like Mitch Kupchak who was gifted Pau Gasol, otherwise he'd probably be out of a job right now. Or a guy like Danny Ainge, who was widely considered a bumbling idiot before Kevin McHale threw him a life line. Look around the league and identify the good and great GMs. Look at Kevin Pritchard who was being hailed as the next bright mind, but look at all the luck he has had in the draft and then look at the debacle he has from his off season moves.

"Great" GMs make mistakes. It's the nature of the job. In Dumars' case, a couple of his mistakes were monumental so they get more attention. But, if you go and look around the league, who has clearly done a better job over the last 10 seasons?

[Kriz-Maxima]

I know, but when people say "Great GM" aren't they taking about their ability to make the right picks? I realize that most every GM would have taken Darko, but a great GM would be able to see past that and pick a guy like Carmelo, Bosh and Wade. Like in football, the great GMs are guys who can draft all stars in the 6th round and don't miss with their first picks no matter who they are passing up. Like the Texans passing on the greatest running back of all time for Mario Williams, how did that work out? That is what great GMs can do and that is why I say Dumars is middle of the road but not great

The GM's job is not based solely on being able to pick the good players in the draft, if that was all there is to it Isiah wouldn't be out of a job, since he has a nice eye for drafting. A good GM has to build a quality team and drafting is only one of the means available to do that.

[resistanze]

Dumars has done more to earn his credit than Mandingo James has done to earn his.

[Thunder Dan]

If that's your definition of a "great" GM, that's cool. I'm not the one who outlines the characteristics and traits that are necessary for every single person to consider a GM "great."

How about this: Over the last decade, can you name 5 NBA GMs who have clearly done a better job than Joe Dumars? That includes those who are no longer GMs now. Name 5 who clearly have done better jobs as NBA GMs. You have probably well over 50 GMs to choose from with firings and hirings (I'm guessing), perhaps more.

Maybe you can. But, I think you'd be hard pressed to do so. I think that's how I'd probably define a "great" GM, by comparing what that particular GM has done to what other GMs have done. Really off the top of my head, RC Buford might be the only one who "clearly" has done a better job. Edit: And of course Jerry West...

Look at a guy like Mitch Kupchak who was gifted Pau Gasol, otherwise he'd probably be out of a job right now. Or a guy like Danny Ainge, who was widely considered a bumbling idiot before Kevin McHale threw him a life line. Look around the league and identify the good and great GMs. Look at Kevin Pritchard who was being hailed as the next bright mind, but look at all the luck he has had in the draft and then look at the debacle he has from his off season moves.

"Great" GMs make mistakes. It's the nature of the job. In Dumars' case, a couple of his mistakes were monumental so they get more attention. But, if you go and look around the league, who has clearly done a better job over the last 10 seasons?

I think Ainge is doing alright. I mean you can say what you want about McHale, Ainge had the young talent to trade away to make it happen. Not only that, he drafted Rondo late in the first round in 2006. He picked up Leon Powe for a late 2007 2nd round pick. And, got Glen Davis as a throw in to the Ray Allen deal. And got Perkins late in the 2007 draft. I think Ainge is pretty solid


The guy in Portland is pretty good too. He hasn't won anything yet, but the team is full of talent even with Oden being hurt, and they are in a position to offer a max deal this summer.

Otis Smith for the Magic has done an excellent job.