Haven't been able to see the games because of work. Its been frustrating.
Sucks to see the team struggling. From what I can tell is that the spurs were just awful in the 3rd and in the 4th, lack of team execution did the team in. IN the past, those were the games the spurs excelled at. Spurs played so well as a unit and out played opposing teams.
Not the case any more
Bogans has limited value as a defensive player and has virtually no value on offense, most of the teams he's been apart of obviously figured that out and shipped him out accordingly.
I still have no idea what was going through Popovich's head when he signed this guy when they already had a guy with a ton more upside (Hairston)
The team showed resilence in the 4th in the Utah game, without it, I would have switched the game off. The execution in the 3rd quarter sucks though.
Talk about being mediocre. Look at this guy's stats. Jesus H. Christ
Richard Jefferson
35.3 minutes, 7.7 points, 3.7 rebounds, 2.0 assists, 1.3 steals, 2.0 turnovers
35.7% from the field, 30% (3-for-10) on three-pointers, 00.0% (0-for-5) at the line
I been saying all along it's just gonna take time and we probably won't be a 1 or 2 seed. But if they get it right it won't matter. When this team was basically the same year in and year out they still always started slow. Now we have more new pieces to fit in than ever and more good players not just role players. So it will take a bit. But I believe we'll get there. A couple bounces and we're on an 8-game winning streak instead of losing 3. We'll have to sacrifice some games but we'll get there. That being said running a play for bonner with the game on the line is insane.
Well, you pretty much capture what I have seen in those descriptions, LJ, and it ain't pretty. We basically have the majority of our best 11 players playing like garbage right now.
For mine, the major problem is on the wing - Bogans is struggling, RJ is lost and Manu has sadly lost a step. If I were the team I'd be exploring trade option for Manu/RJ, and if a good one comes along for a young, athletic wing who can create and knock dow the 3 (yeah, I know, they don't grow on trees), I'd pull the trigger. Pity we missed out on Jax, and more and more it looks like we should have traded for Vince last season...
I trust that TP and George will find their way out of their struggles - they are too good not to - and that Dice and the other role players will become relevant again when the machine starts to move with some fluidity, but right now everyone is affected by the malaise affecting 3 of the big 4.
And just how much do we miss Bruce? A load is how much. The system simply doesn't stand up without an elite perimeter defender. It might also be time to package something to NO for James Posey, if we have anything they want. As a smart defender and clutch 3pt shooter, he would make a huge difference here.
However, I also bet that none of these things happen. Pop is not one to upset the apple cart early in the season. He will probably stay the course, unfortunately, even though it's obvious to everyone that this team is not a contender right now. Sad, but true.
Last edited by RuffnReadyOzStyle; 12-08-2009 at 10:09 PM.
Good job as always timvp. I have been able to watch most of the games this year and I'm not sure it is time to give up. As an optimist:
1. TP is not himself. When he gets his explosive move to the basket back that will fix a lot of offensive problems.
2. Ginobili still could return to a closer version of himself. If he can stay healthy he should be better by February.
3. McDyess is a proven quan y and will play like himself as the season goes on.
4. bonner looks like one of the better backup bigs in the NBA
5. Bogans can impersonate Bowen for limited stretches
6. Jefferson has been around this league and should start playing closer to his career averages
7. Perhaps most important- DUNCAN looks like he could potentially have a great season and be an offensive force in the playoffs
However, right now the Spurs are an average team.
Not worried
I am definitely worried, but that does not mean all is lost. Spurs had a ton of work coming into the season, and even more now given the cir stances.
Maybe Jefferson just isn't very bright.
while i'm concerned about the entire team, the only person i'm really worried about now is ginobili. he seems to have lost his explosiveness. other than his 3 pointers, ever other part of his game has suffered. it's sad but i can name many examples where players lose their effectiveness after major injuries.
i wonder, if ginobili does not improve, it's near the deadline, and the spurs are 7-8th seed will popovich really trade him?
I hope the team explores trading a package of Manu/Mason/Finley, but I don't know if Pop/RC would actually trade Manu..it seems like they'll ride with him through anything..the opposite side of this argument is that Pop clearly gave up on Bowen, so there's a chance..
When he's mentally and physically healthy, he's more valuable to us than anything a trade can bring..but will he ever be the same Manu?..right now he's a below average player..keeping him means we're taking the risk that he'll be healthy AND that he'll be the same guy when it matters..
In the past, successful Spurs teams have had a fair number of "new pieces" fit in fairly quickly. They've been on a losing steak in that regard since, oh, June '07.
Blair may break the streak big time. Used to be, Spurs fans acknowledged Blair's strengths but also recited his ordained and unalterable limitations, e.g., too small to defend bigs, not quick enough to defend virtually anyone.
But if the "Spur way" has rolled off RJ's back like water off a duck, Blair has been like a sponge. He blocks shots now. He gyrates under the basket to score like an overweight Ginobili. Each game, he shows something new and the sky seems to be the limit.
If the Spurs were trying to build a team to beat the Lakers, Blair may be the key. I frankly do not think that there are any physical or other limits to Blair's potential that will keep him from guarding (or scoring against) any bigs in the league, Lakers' included.
The other "new" pieces, however, still don't seem to be fitting in as well. Mason seems to have regressed. Hill could provide much needed athleticism but he's hit and miss. Bonner is fool's gold IMO, looking great against bad teams or in garbage time or contributing more than anyone else when the team loses. While all of those things create nice stats, none of them can help a team win big games.
And Pop, like anyone in a position of power for a long time, seems to be tending more and more toward his weaknesses, i.e., undervaluing athleticism, overvaluing control (even if it means uninspired play), trying to build a team that is more suited for the league in the "hack 'em on the perimeter" era (or the "surround Duncan with stationary three point shooters" era).
I think the Spurs have the players to compete for the whole thing, but they definitely have to take the plunge and go with a more athletic lineup. RJ should help quite a bit with that. Maybe Hill, too. And Blair.
Get 'em to play Spurs defense, Pop. But give 'em their head a little bit more along the way -- let 'em show what they can do. (And please turn Bonner into a specialist, not a mainstay.)
Then pray like heck that the Big 3 can still use their legs to make plays -- not just their heads.
Long awaited. Much appreciated.
they wanted to let david robinson WALK
O
I'm not arguing that it's deserved or undeserved, but before coming to the Spurs, Bogan's reputation has been that he's dependable as a defensive specialist, takes care of the ball, and avoids turnovers/mistakes.
1) http://www.mysanantonio.com/sports/s...over_Mavs.html:
Bogans clamped down, alternately, on Josh Howard, Jason Terry, Jason Kidd and J.J. Barea — none of whom shot better than 50 percent from the field.
“That's what Keith Bogans does,” Spurs coach Gregg Popovich said.
2) http://basketballtraderumors.com/mod...rticle&sid=588:
Bogans, a solid defensive player, is being looked at as an heir apparent to Bruce Bowen, who retired recently after being San Antonio's perimeter defensive stopper throughout much of the decade. The Spurs had been grooming Ime Udoka for that role, but they are electing not to bring him back as a free agent after he played two seasons with the team.
3) http://www.draftexpress.com/profile/Keith-Bogans-1715/:Offense: Almost exclusively a 3-point shooter at this point in his career, but is pretty effective in this role. Not very effective off the dribble. An average ball-handler at best. Doesn’t make many mistakes with the ball, nor will he be very aggressive with his dribble drive. Makes smart passes, but isn’t a playmaker. Likes to go left, and is very effective when he does. Doesn’t get many looks at the rim, and rarely gets to the free throw line. Isn’t asked to function as much more than a spot up player, but is solid all around.
Defense: A very solid defender who uses his strength to his advantage. Does a good job getting into position to deny dribble penetration. Won’t get pushed around on the block or by a ball handler trying to get a step. Has a hard time defending taller swingmen. Doesn’t take many risks as a half court defender. Shows a willingness to get on the floor when he can grab a loose ball. Always turns with the shot and looks to box out and secure the rebound. Not a playmaker, but the type of solid defender that coaches love to bring off the bench.
Greg Popovich
Loser. Look at the picture. Spurs Coach. Matt Bonner. Keith Bogans. 70+ million.
You were fooled.
Seeing the Spurs get routinely outhustled, outquicked and outrebounded by younger, quicker teams is a trend that started with the '08 season.
We wont know if Pop plays his usual "rookie" head games with the kid. While I like the additions of Hill and Blair, I think the Spurs STILL need more of what they very little of now - length and athleticism. If Rudy Gay becomes available next summer, as most think he will be (he and the Grizz were unable to come to terms over this past summer), the Spurs had better be first in line.
Explosive comments, yet sadly true. Pop hasn't altered his philosophy much. I've often wondered why the Spurs are perennially the least-athletic team, and the oldest team, in the NBA? It does appear that Pop always places more value on age, rather than athleticism. Even after watching his roster decline and his teams continuously failing to keep up with up-and-coming new playoff-contending teams. And don't forget, everyone is still chasing the Fakers and they are a uva lot younger than the Spurs. Pop is an old-school coach that believe in his system. And why not? He's got four les to back it up. However, I do agree that he needs to keep up with the changes in league trends, other than adopting small-ball.
I don't know if the Spurs have all the pieces to compete for the whole thing, but it would be nice to see all the pieces and various combinations be fully utlized - that includes playing the youngsters. There are certainly times where Pop can and should try to match the athleticism of opponents as best he can.
agree. and IMO that's the key question. all other questions can be solved, players roles can be adjusted, minor moves could also help there.
but the RJ question is a really big one. we all thought he is the right player for the Spurs needs, but it wouldn't be the first time such a move didn't turn out as helpful as it seemed in the beginning. I also don't think the "good fans are patient" rule, or the "players need 2 seasons to adjust" rule is valid in RJ's case. yes, it's early and yes, things might turn better with him, but the general problems he has with the Spurs style and system are obvious.
I also don't want to blame or bash him. things like that happen.
question is the exit strategy.
a trade? why not. it might be easier to put a player on the market, as long most GMs still think he just didn't fit with the Spurs (but fits with team xy)
he has a huge contract, which won't be easy to move. on the other hand, such numbers also help to make things happen. interesting will be teams, that already focus on 2011. (while Spurs push their focus to 2012, when Tim retires?)
Kings? would they do a Nocioni, K.Thomas, Rodriguez package for RJ, Mason/Finley, Ian?
would we do it?
How is Jefferson going to get boards if he is focusing on getting out on transition and getting back on D? He is still averaging 4+ a game.
His D has actually been pretty good, he uses his length well to contest shots on the perimeter and especially at the rim. His Transition D needs work though.
He is often the bail out option on offense which isn't going to do his confidence much good. He is also often making that Hockey assist pass before the final pass. Pop tried an iso on the block against Utah, it looked promising, if the other players can learn to play off of that.
Manu regains some form and TP gets healthy then this team is rolling.
Ohh yeah brilliant. The new guys (who are relatively savvy veterans) had a preseason and 18 games and are still struggling to find chemistry and pick up the play book.
Lets trade for a player who will be even further behind the eight ball. Brilliant idea.
Don't cherry pick my posts and make it look like I didn't have some reasons for saying that. Quote the whole thing next time.
RJ does not fit. He needs the ball to make an impact, and he's not getting it. I'd try making him the 6th man first, but at the same time I'd be seeing if anyone wants him. Moving him for another player will make very little difference because it's not like he's thriving in the system.
As for Manu, I'd give him until January to show that he can take a man off the dribble. If he can't have some really decent games with the weak schedule that's a huge warning sign. I'd also be putting out feelers to see what people would give for him. He'd be a huge loss, but if he has lost a step we aren't going anywhere with him this year or any future year, so you have to roll the dice. I love Manu, and I hate to say that, but with effectively 2 1/2 seasons of Tim's career left, there's no time to waste.
Blackjack suggest Manu for Salmons and Thomas in another thread - it works monetarily, the Bulls would love the 10.7mil expiring, and those are talented players (although Thomas is a headcase and has a low ball IQ). It's high risk high reward, but sometimes you have to gamble.
Also, there is precedent of players coming into the Spurs mid-season and greatly helping the team - Nazr as the example off the top of my head.
Yeah I am with Ruff with trying RJ off the bench. If not benching RJ I think Manu needs to start.
Bogans has been worse that I thought. I thought he could provide a bit more offense that Bruce, but he's getting worse and worse on that end. You know I am beside myself that he is starting now and Bruce was let go because of his limited offense. Bruce not only could score more, but he was still easily the better defender. Don't get me wrong to I really do like the effort Bogans is showing on the defensive end. I always like players that bust their ass on defense.
I love Bruce Bowen. One of the best Spurs players of all time. I thought with the RJ trade he was only included because he would be bought out and come back to the Spurs.
Very good wrap-up with two additions.
1) Parker has regressed substantially on defense, to the point where he is mostly watching and resting for the offense to resume. That's unacceptable.
2) That Jefferson is a case of mental softness is exemplified by the last 3 minutes of the Portland game: he didn't get a couple of questionable calls (on important plays), got upset and went off with a monster dunk on Aldridge. Too bad it was irrelevant by then. So maybe Popovich should bench the guy for a couple of games, just to get him seriously upset.
I'm all for this. Actually, I'm all for anyone other than Bogans starting. Try RMJ, try Manu... I don't care. Enough is enough.
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