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  1. #1
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    Socialism in Stages
    Even soft, incremental expansions of government produce poverty.

    By Dan Oliver Jr.

    America debated three strategies during the Cold War. The Right wanted “roll back” — dreams of Patton driving his tank into Red Square. The Left wanted détente — which is French for “surrender.” The country loosely followed containment, a program outlined by George Kennan in 1946, which argued that the political contradictions of the Soviet state would eventually cause its own demise. America had but to be patient.

    Kennan may have been the first to realize that a society based on Communism would not survive politically, but it was Ludwig von Mises, in his 1922 work Socialism, who demonstrated that any such society could not survive economically.

    When a collection of free individuals — the market — is willing to pay a price for a product that creates “excess” profits, it signals producers to provide more of that product. If the market does not support a given price, producers are forced to redeploy their assets for more pressing social needs. Similarly, if a factor of production, such as labor or capital, changes in price, producers instantly react, sending signals — through the prices of intermediate goods — down to the consumer. Prices effortlessly allocate society’s assets to reflect consumer preference and adjust to accommodate the ever-changing availability of scarce resources.

    Mises argued that governmental interference in prices, through taxation, subsidies, and regulation, complicates this process — affecting not only the consumption of final goods, but also the economic calculations that are necessary to provide intermediate goods and services. Higher-order division of labor fails. Poverty results. For example, while Chinese and Russian central planners were busy setting quotas for steel mills, there was no method for consumers to signal that they preferred food — and millions starved to death.


    If the hard socialism of Communism produces economic and societal collapse quickly, Mises theorized, the soft, incremental socialism of the West — popularized again recently as the “Third Way” by Tony Blair and Bill Clinton — would produce poverty in stages. Every bureaucratic intervention in the market reduces long-term wealth creation, even if it provides a temporary boost to the economy. In time, this reduction of wealth is blamed on the inefficiencies of the remaining “unfettered” market, which provokes calls for greater intervention, ad infinitum.

    Health care is a perfect example of the incremental socialization process. Government programs such as Medicare and Medicaid began by providing limited assistance to the old and the indigent. As health-care costs rose, these programs were expanded and new ones, such as S-CHIP, were added. The government now pays 32 percent of all non-military health-care bills, up from 6 percent in 1960. The remaining private expenditures are heavily regulated, resulting in the anticipated economic chaos. Under Obamacare, the situation can only grow worse. As P. J. O’Rourke quipped: “If you think health care is expensive now, wait until it’s free.”

    Housing provides another example. Today, 71 years after Fannie Mae was founded, the central government provides a stunning 90 percent of the liquidity in the mortgage market, enabled by the Federal Reserve’s repurchase of 85 percent of new mortgages with freshly printed money. Banking is next.

    Ronald Reagan’s 1980 election was the zenith of the conservative movement’s attempt to defeat Communism and limit government. Internationally, deployment of Pershing II missiles in Europe and military support of anti-Communist movements gave teeth to containment. Nine years later, the Soviet Union fell. Domestically, Reagan promised to get government off our backs by reducing taxes to starve Leviathan. Instead, politicians made up the shortfall with deficits, which soared as government grew relentlessly under both political parties. Twenty-nine years after Reagan’s election, the federal government spends 37 cents of every dollar in the economy. Operation Rollback as applied to the federal government has failed.

    The economic laws described by Mises that brought down Communism apply equally to the American brand of soft socialism. Market forces will soon lay waste to American central planning just as surely as they did to the Soviet version two decades ago
    . The crises in housing, health care, and banking, the inevitable results of government intervention, are but harbingers of greater instability in our way of life. If Republicans wish to stay relevant, they must return to their conservative roots.

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  3. #3
    Veteran Spursmania's Avatar
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    Obama believes and wants wealth distribution.

    The current health care bill fiasco has so many tax increases in there it'll make your head spin.

  4. #4
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    When a collection of free individuals — the market — is willing to pay a price for a product that creates “excess” profits, it signals producers to provide more of that product. If the market does not support a given price, producers are forced to redeploy their assets for more pressing social needs. Similarly, if a factor of production, such as labor or capital, changes in price, producers instantly react, sending signals — through the prices of intermediate goods — down to the consumer. Prices effortlessly allocate society’s assets to reflect consumer preference and adjust to accommodate the ever-changing availability of scarce resources.

    Mises argued that governmental interference in prices, through taxation, subsidies, and regulation, complicates this process — affecting not only the consumption of final goods, but also the economic calculations that are necessary to provide intermediate goods and services. Higher-order division of labor fails. Poverty results. For example, while Chinese and Russian central planners were busy setting quotas for steel mills, there was no method for consumers to signal that they preferred food — and millions starved to death.
    This is called in economics the Economic Calculation Problem

    A short review of the debate about the ECP in the middle 20th century: The Socialist Calculation Debate

    The Impossibility of Economic Calculation under Socialism (Prof. David Steele)

    The Use of Knowledge in Society by F.A. Hayek

  5. #5
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    So every country with government controlled or regulated health care is destined to fail?

    I find that rather simplistic. If there are examples of the complete failure of "soft socialist" countries that had already reached a US or western European level of industrialization, that is the kind of thing that should be discussed here. We are not and never will be the Soviet Union; it's a straw man argument.

    It's also fun to see the contradictions in the article saying communism was going to fail no matter what but Reagan should get all the credit for making it happen.

  6. #6
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    "expansions of government produce poverty"

    contractions of government regulation of the capital markets have produced poverty in millions of US families and dozens of countries.

    As always, the VRWC farts out its socialist and other fogs to distract the rabble from the real crimes and culprits.

  7. #7
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    I lost IQ points after reading this thread.

    If Obama and Fannie Mae and a few other quips weren't mentioned, you could tell me this article written in 1981 and I might believe you.

  8. #8
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Zing.

  9. #9
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    "expansions of government produce poverty"

    contractions of government regulation of the capital markets have produced poverty in millions of US families and dozens of countries.

    As always, the VRWC farts out its socialist and other fogs to distract the rabble from the real crimes and culprits.
    There can be no top without a bottom. There will always be a spectrum that exists in anything. No man-made system will ever overcome the natural order of this reality. If you can't eventually get comfortable in the system that is in place, well...sucks for you. Quit having kids, work harder & longer & eventually smarter, and spend your money more wisely. It really is that simple. Life sucks. Life sucks more when you complicate it by burying yourself under negative variables.

    Government ing up the system by punishing those that understand the game is....well, it's government.

    I don't need to be a spawn of Satan brainwashed by St. Ronnie to understand this.
    Last edited by EmptyMan; 12-16-2009 at 01:57 PM.

  10. #10
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    So, how many of you have actually understood the problem of economic calculation?

  11. #11
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    proponents of the problem overstate the strength of their case, in describing socialism as impossible
    Like mogrovejo.

    Surely a large number of theoretically impossible socialisms actually exist. At least as many as there are socialist countries, no?

  12. #12
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    Like mogrovejo.

    Surely a large number of theoretically impossible socialisms actually exist. At least as many as there are socialist countries, no?
    Sure. Are you suggesting that Mises wasn't aware of the existence of socialist countries?

  13. #13
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Not at all.

    The proponents were specified.

    The theory may have other problems Wino is unaware of.

    Quien sabe?
    Last edited by Winehole23; 12-17-2009 at 06:49 AM.

  14. #14
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    So, how many of you have actually understood the problem of economic calculation?
    pretend nobody does and explain the problem of economic calculation to us

  15. #15
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    Sure. Are you suggesting that Mises wasn't aware of the existence of socialist countries?
    seems to me Mises is waiting for a socialist country to hit the skids so he can jump in with an "I told you so".

  16. #16
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    Robert Heilbroner, the bestselling writer of economics, died early this month at the age of 85.

    Heilbroner was an outspoken socialist; if only a libertarian could write an introductory book on economics that could—like Heilbroner's The Worldly Philosophers—sell 4 million copies.


    He was not entirely impervious to new evidence, however. In 1989, he famously wrote in The New Yorker:
    "Less than 75 years after it officially began, the contest between capitalism and socialism is over: capitalism has won... Capitalism organizes the material affairs of humankind more satisfactorily than socialism."




    In The New Yorker again the next year, he reminisced about hearing of Ludwig von Mises at Harvard in the 1930s. But of course his professors and fellow students scoffed at Mises's claim that socialism could not work. It seemed at the time, he wrote, that it was capitalism that was failing. Then, a mere 50 years later, he acknowledged: "It turns out, of course, that Mises was right" about the impossibility of socialism.





    On the big issue of capitalism vs. socialism, though, he did continue his rueful acknowledgment of error. In 1992, he explained the facts of life to Dissent readers:
    Capitalism has been as unmistakable a success as socialism has been a failure. Here is the part that's hard to swallow. It has been the Friedmans, Hayeks, and von Miseses who have maintained that capitalism would flourish and that socialism would develop incurable ailments. All three have regarded capitalism as the 'natural' system of free men; all have maintained that left to its own devices capitalism would achieve material growth more successfully than any other system. From [my samplings] I draw the following discomforting generalization: The farther to the right one looks, the more prescient has been the historical foresight; the farther to the left, the less so.
    http://reason.com/archives/2005/01/2...told-the-truth
    Last edited by mogrovejo; 12-16-2009 at 03:08 PM.

  17. #17
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Capitalism organizes the material affairs of humankind more satisfactorily than socialism
    Is the basic theme propounded by the ECP. Left at that, I see no problem with it.

  18. #18
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    What's the ECP?

  19. #19
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    There's no industrial country that is purely capitalistic or socialistic. There are only degrees of mixed economies.

    The US is socialistic with Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security and 100s of $Bs of state and federal subsidies and tax breaks to the MIC, farmers, big oil/gas/coal, etc.

    Anybody who thinks the US is purely capitalistic is full of bull .

    And conservatives wet dream of unregulated "Greed is Good" reptilian, predatory capitalism has delivered a huge depression to the USA and world, and destroyed $Ts in wealth of non-capitalists.

    And non of the conservatives and capitalists managed their affairs and foresaw enough to see the bubbles and deflate them less painfully. In fact, the capitalists are always looking to inflate the next bubble and exploit THEIR capital on the backs of the non-capitalists.

  20. #20
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    There's no industrial country that is purely capitalistic or socialistic. There are only degrees of mixed economies.

    The US is socialistic with Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security and 100s of $Bs of state and federal subsidies and tax breaks to the MIC, farmers, big oil/gas/coal, etc.

    Anybody who thinks the US is purely capitalistic is full of bull .

    And conservatives wet dream of unregulated "Greed is Good" reptilian, predatory capitalism has delivered a huge depression to the USA and world, and destroyed $Ts in wealth of non-capitalists.

    And non of the conservatives and capitalists managed their affairs and foresaw enough to see the bubbles and deflate them less painfully. In fact, the capitalists are always looking to inflate the next bubble and exploit THEIR capital on the backs of the non-capitalists.
    Socialism in Stages
    Even soft, incremental expansions of government produce poverty.

    By Dan Oliver Jr.
    (...) Every bureaucratic intervention in the market reduces long-term wealth creation, even if it provides a temporary boost to the economy. In time, this reduction of wealth is blamed on the inefficiencies of the remaining “unfettered” market, which provokes calls for greater intervention, ad infinitum.

  21. #21
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    the market "remaining" wasn't unfettered, it was unregulated and it ed up the planet, except for the up ers who got bailed out by the eduppers.

    Glass-Steagall worked 60+ years. Kill it, and don't regulate derivatvies, and within 10 years, the capitalists inflate a bubble and cause another extreme depression.

  22. #22
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    I lost IQ points after reading this thread.

    If Obama and Fannie Mae and a few other quips weren't mentioned, you could tell me this article written in 1981 and I might believe you.

  23. #23
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    the market "remaining" wasn't unfettered, it was unregulated and it ed up the planet, except for the up ers who got bailed out by the eduppers.

    Glass-Steagall worked 60+ years. Kill it, and don't regulate derivatvies, and within 10 years, the capitalists inflate a bubble and cause another extreme depression.
    +1000

    Boutons is on his game...

  24. #24
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    the market "remaining" wasn't unfettered, it was unregulated
    What?

  25. #25
    "Have to check the film" PixelPusher's Avatar
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    Move to Somalia, mongrovejo. Zero government. Zero regulations. Absolutely 100% Socialism-free.

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