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  1. #1
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    ...take out the fines for the non-insured and I could live with it...

    Pass the Bill
    By PAUL KRUGMAN
    Published: December 17, 2009


    A message to progressives: By all means, hang Senator Joe Lieberman in effigy. Declare that you’re disappointed in and/or disgusted with President Obama. Demand a change in Senate rules that, combined with the Republican strategy of total obstructionism, are in the process of making America ungovernable.

    But meanwhile, pass the health care bill.

    Yes, the filibuster-imposed need to get votes from “centrist” senators has led to a bill that falls a long way short of ideal. Worse, some of those senators seem motivated largely by a desire to protect the interests of insurance companies — with the possible exception of Mr. Lieberman, who seems motivated by sheer spite.

    But let’s all take a deep breath, and consider just how much good this bill would do, if passed — and how much better it would be than anything that seemed possible just a few years ago. With all its flaws, the Senate health bill would be the biggest expansion of the social safety net since Medicare, greatly improving the lives of millions. Getting this bill would be much, much better than watching health care reform fail.

    At its core, the bill would do two things. First, it would prohibit discrimination by insurance companies on the basis of medical condition or history: Americans could no longer be denied health insurance because of a pre-existing condition, or have their insurance canceled when they get sick. Second, the bill would provide substantial financial aid to those who don’t get insurance through their employers, as well as tax breaks for small employers that do provide insurance.

    All of this would be paid for in large part with the first serious effort ever to rein in rising health care costs.


    The result would be a huge increase in the availability and affordability of health insurance, with more than 30 million Americans gaining coverage, and premiums for lower-income and lower-middle-income Americans falling dramatically. That’s an immense change from where we were just a few years ago: remember, not long ago the Bush administration and its allies in Congress successfully blocked even a modest expansion of health care for children.

    Bear in mind also the lessons of history: social insurance programs tend to start out highly imperfect and incomplete, but get better and more comprehensive as the years go by. Thus Social Security originally had huge gaps in coverage — and a majority of African-Americans, in particular, fell through those gaps. But it was improved over time, and it’s now the bedrock of retirement stability for the vast majority of Americans.

    Look, I understand the anger here: supporting this weakened bill feels like giving in to blackmail — because it is. Or to use an even more accurate metaphor suggested by Ezra Klein of The Washington Post, we’re paying a ransom to hostage-takers. Some of us, including a majority of senators, really, really want to cover the uninsured; but to make that happen we need the votes of a handful of senators who see failure of reform as an acceptable outcome, and demand a steep price for their support.

    The question, then, is whether to pay the ransom by giving in to the demands of those senators, accepting a flawed bill, or hang tough and let the hostage — that is, health reform — die.

    Again, history suggests the answer. Whereas flawed social insurance programs have tended to get better over time, the story of health reform suggests that rejecting an imperfect deal in the hope of eventually getting something better is a recipe for getting nothing at all. Not to put too fine a point on it, America would be in much better shape today if Democrats had cut a deal on health care with Richard Nixon, or if Bill Clinton had cut a deal with moderate Republicans back when they still existed.


    But won’t paying the ransom now encourage more hostage-taking in the future? Maybe. But the next big fight, over the future of the financial system, will be very different. If the usual suspects try to water down financial reform, I say call their bluff: there’s not much to lose, since a merely cosmetic reform, by creating a false sense of security, could well end up being worse than nothing.

    Beyond that, we need to take on the way the Senate works. The filibuster, and the need for 60 votes to end debate, aren’t in the Cons ution. They’re a Senate tradition, and that same tradition said that the threat of filibusters should be used sparingly. Well, Republicans have already trashed the second part of the tradition: look at a list of cloture motions over time, and you’ll see that since the G.O.P. lost control of Congress it has pursued obstructionism on a literally unprecedented scale. So it’s time to revise the rules.

    But that’s for later. Right now, let’s pass the bill that’s on the table.
    NY Times

  2. #2
    Displaced 101A's Avatar
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    All of this would be paid for in large part with the first serious effort ever to rein in rising health care costs.
    What part of the Bill, exactly, is that?

    Krugman may not be an idiot, but he IS every bit the partisan hack Rush Limbaugh is.

    Mandating additional coverage, and loosening underwriting rules to non-existent WILL NOT save money; they will cost money. Then, Dan wants us to drink the double shot grape Kool-Aid by NOT penalizing people who don't get insurance, and THEN make the insurance companies take them not matter what their free-loading selves eventually contract!

    The problem with the system is runaway costs; control that, or you might as well not pass a bill. NOTHING in this bill addresses that very basic point, despite the fact that Krugman says it does.

  3. #3
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    ...take out the fines for the non-insured and I could live with it...
    And, if Insurance companies are required to take on people with pre-existing conditions, who's going to buy insurance before they need it?

  4. #4
    Believe. admiralsnackbar's Avatar
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    And, if Insurance companies are required to take on people with pre-existing conditions, who's going to buy insurance before they need it?
    Excellent question.

  5. #5
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    I've been asking it for months...

  6. #6
    Believe. admiralsnackbar's Avatar
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    I've been asking it for months...
    To be fair, if you've been following the "development" of the bill, you needn't have asked it so long -- if membership in a health policy will become compulsory as it has appeared it will for the past several months, your question is answered.

  7. #7
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    To be fair, if you've been following the "development" of the bill, you needn't have asked it so long -- if membership in a health policy will become compulsory as it has appeared it will for the past several months, your question is answered.
    Au contraire, even when the mandate existed -- and it has, in some form or fashion, for several months -- the penalties never exceeded the cost of insurance and, therefore, provided no incentive to purchase insurance before it was needed.

    My question had been valid for months...

  8. #8
    Believe. admiralsnackbar's Avatar
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    Au contraire, even when the mandate existed -- and it has, in some form or fashion, for several months -- the penalties never exceeded the cost of insurance and, therefore, provided no incentive to purchase insurance before it was needed.

    My question had been valid for months...
    I see. Touché, then.

  9. #9
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    Yonivore, you are right.

    A person has no real incentive to purchase health insurance if he cannot be turned down for pre-existing conditions. So this provision, standing alone, does nothing to improve the prospects of increasing coverage. In fact, it encourages the uninsured to remain uninsured.

    To remedy that, the legislation proposes an individual mandate. But, like you said, the penalties are too minimal to be effective. If the Democrats had any balls, they would propose high penalties or jail time for non-compliance with the individual mandate.

    That's the problem. They're trying to half-throttle their coercive measures to fix healthcare. I'd rather the federal government just give poor people healthcare vouchers (tax credits?) to purchase catastrophic insurance.

  10. #10
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    That's the problem. They're trying to half-throttle their coercive measures to fix healthcare. I'd rather the federal government just give poor people healthcare vouchers (tax credits?) to purchase catastrophic insurance.
    Instead of two costly stimulus bills, extension of unemployment benefits -- trickle-down stimulus and so forth -- you have direct (temporary, ok?) abatement of payroll and corporate taxes.

    Workers get more take home. Businesses will not grow if they do not a have a market to sell to, true, so the effect may not be directly stimulative,short run, but a shallower draught may help keep them off of rocky shoals until they find clear sailing again. So that is one idea.

    Here is another, slightly OT: A good friend of mine -- a very conservative, very military fellow -- suggested direct stimulus as being simpler and better. Just take whatever the amount is and give it directly to Americans.

    Supposing that you have to even have a stimulus bill to start with, I couldn't think of any reason why not. Can you, doobs?

  11. #11
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    They're trying to half-throttle their coercive measures to fix healthcare.
    Likes the half-throttle.

  12. #12
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    To remedy that, the legislation proposes an individual mandate. But, like you said, the penalties are too minimal to be effective. If the Democrats had any balls, they would propose high penalties or jail time for non-compliance with the individual mandate.
    Don't worry, doobs. More drastic penalties will be phased back in at some point.

  13. #13
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    Don't worry, doobs. More drastic penalties will be phased back in at some point.
    Not necessary because, private insurance cannot long survive a model where only sick people buy insurance -- and, then, only when they are sick and their health care costs far exceed anything they might pay in premiums.

    At that point, the government will just take premiums in the form of taxes, from those who pay taxes, give health care to everyone, and call it a day.

  14. #14
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    poor people who can't afford to pay the gouging prices of for-profit private insurance will have subsidies, but they still have to fork over something.

    If not, they will be penalized in 2 years or so.

    aka, a HUGE WIN for the private insurers, delivered to them by the Congress they paid for.

  15. #15
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Not necessary because, private insurance cannot long survive a model where only sick people buy insurance -- and, then, only when they are sick and their health care costs far exceed anything they might pay in premiums.
    Doomed. To swift failure. Obviously. Sometime after 2013.

  16. #16
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    Doomed. To swift failure. Obviously. Sometime after 2013.
    It won't take long.

  17. #17
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    I thought it was going to take the rest of our lives.

    That was the whole point of the GOP filibustering the defense bill, or reading Sen. Sanders 300 page amendment to reinsert an already doomed public option out loud, wasn't it?

    Push it off until after Christmas somehow, and hope it continues to lose steam.

  18. #18
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    I thought it was going to take the rest of our lives.

    That was the whole point of the GOP filibustering the defense bill, or reading Sen. Sanders 300 page amendment to reinsert an already doomed public option out loud, wasn't it?

    Push it off until after Christmas somehow, and hope it continues to lose steam.
    It appears we're no longer talking about the same things...

  19. #19
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    Krugman may not be an idiot...
    lol. no. He's just an idiot with a really big megaphone.

  20. #20
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    It appears we're no longer talking about the same things...
    Not reform?

  21. #21
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    Here is another, slightly OT: A good friend of mine -- a very conservative, very military fellow -- suggested direct stimulus as being simpler and better. Just take whatever the amount is and give it directly to Americans.

    Supposing that you have to even have a stimulus bill to start with, I couldn't think of any reason why not. Can you, doobs?
    Are we talking generally about stimulus? If so, there is a mounting body of empirical evidence to suggest that, of the fiscal tools typically employed to stimulate the economy, tax cuts work the best. Here's a particularly interesting recent study.

    This is sort of counterintuitive---since increased government spending presumably means more money is spent in the economy, thereby boosting consumer demand, and tax cuts presumably could mean money is just put away and saved by recession-weary taxpayers.

    I'm not sure where direct payments---stimulus checks---fit in to all this.

  22. #22
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    I'm not sure where direct payments---stimulus checks---fit in to all this.
    Versus a trickle-down stimulus? Maybe they don't.

    What about payroll taxes, then?

  23. #23
    Banned
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    shave your beard first and i will listen

  24. #24
    Truth, justice, and the NBA
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    I agree with him 100%

  25. #25
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Not necessary because, private insurance cannot long survive a model where only sick people buy insurance -- and, then, only when they are sick and their health care costs far exceed anything they might pay in premiums.

    At that point, the government will just take premiums in the form of taxes, from those who pay taxes, give health care to everyone, and call it a day.
    Exactly. Now, let's get it done...

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