Why Kobe/Jordan Debate Is Closer Than It Seems

[Cane]

ElNono, this forum and especially this thread is no place for reason or logic. Its just Kobe trolls circle jerking eachother. Get with the program!

[Allanon]

He was there when it mattered. You can't Hack-a-Shaq in the last two minutes of the game.

What are you talking about? Sure you can Hack-a-Shaq in the last two minutes of a game, teams did that all the time. That's why you never gave Shaq the ball in those last 2 minutes unless he could just dunk it right away. If Shaq had to dribble even once, he was a team liability.

But last year Laker's team was a better team overall than that Miami team.

You mean that team with Gasoft, Odumb and "Delusional" Ariza? I recently came across some of your comments on "Gasoft" in the past...I wonder if you had any Odumb ones?

So you agree those are Shaq's rings. What Shaq looks like now has absolutely nothing to do with what Shaq looked like in 2000.

Absolutely agree, Shaq owns 4 rings, Kobe owns 4 rings.

Shaq couldn't hit a free throw in 2000 and he still can't hit a free throw today. Can you really be The Man if other teams are exposing you so much the Coach has to sit you in the 4th?

I don't remember Kobe, Duncan, Jordan, Hakeem being forced to sit out 4th quarters...but Shaq did.

It will be rewritten in that Kobe would have won 4 rings being the leader, effectively catching up to Duncan and Shaq.
You can talk all you want about Hack-a-Shaq, (which virtually applies only to two games in the year 2000 against the Blazers and the Pacers), but Lakers still won those games and Shaq was still the most dominant player in those series.

So you say. Fact remains when you got 7 rings, perspectives will change. Just like MJ was a selfish player but became GOAT after his 6 rings.

This is where reduce yourself to the typical Laker fan by doggin' on Shaq...

I ain't doggin' on Shaq. This was caused by Shaq himself. I was a supporter of Shaq over Kobe early on. But Shaq has screwed himself; and that is the truth.

It's odd that Shaq couldn't play with Kobe, couldn't play with Wade and couldn't play with Nash. Now he's with LeBron.

Kobe, Wade, Nash ALL ran Shaq out of town? Coincidence?

[ElNono]

ElNono, this forum and especially this thread is no place for reason or logic. Its just Kobe trolls circle jerking eachother. Get with the program!

I know where I'm at... This is exactly why I'm just having a conversation with a specific Lakerfan...

[mogrovejo]

Are you aware that Bill Russell never even got 1 Finals MVP?

Holly cow!

When I think Lakers fans can't get more idiotic...

[Allanon]

Holly cow!

When I think Lakers fans can't get more idiotic...

Holly cow!

When I think mogrovejo can't get more idiotic...

[ElNono]

What are you talking about? Sure you can Hack-a-Shaq in the last two minutes of a game, teams did that all the time. That's why you never gave Shaq the ball in those last 2 minutes unless he could just dunk it right away. If Shaq had to dribble even once, he was a team liability.

Wilt Chamberlain off-the-ball rule. Google it.

You mean that team with Gasoft, Odumb and "Delusional" Ariza? I recently came across some of your comments on "Gasoft" in the past...I wonder if you had any Odumb ones?

Hey! That stuff worked for a season and a half...
I ate my crow last season though, and I'm the first to say that.
I'm not even denying Kobe's dominance starting with the Gasol acquisition. And I don't say that as a knock on him. He's matured enough to know how to use his teammates to his advantage. I personally think he figure it out too late.

Shaq couldn't hit a free throw in 2000 and he still can't hit a free throw today. Can you really be The Man if other teams are exposing you so much the Coach has to sit you in the 4th?

Please. First game of the 2000 Finals Shaq scored 43 points and grabbed 19 rebounds. You're telling me he did that sitting from the bench?

I don't remember Kobe, Duncan, Jordan, Hakeem being forced to sit out 4th quarters...but Shaq did.

He didn't sit in the last 2 minutes.

I ain't doggin' on Shaq. This was caused by Shaq himself. I was a supporter of Shaq over Kobe early on. But Shaq has screwed himself; and that is the truth. It's odd that Shaq couldn't play with Kobe, couldn't play with Wade and couldn't play with Nash. Now he's with LeBron. Kobe, Wade, Nash ALL ran Shaq out of town? Coincidence?

What you don't seem to understand is that it doesn't matter at all in the conversation at hand. He was the most dominant Laker player in 2000, 2001 and 2002. Wether he got ran out of town afterwards is irrelevant.

[Allanon]

Wilt Chamberlain rule. Google it.

Hack-a-Shaq was named after Shaq.

Please. First game of the 2000 Finals Shaq scored 43 points and grabbed 19 rebounds. You're telling me he did that sitting from the bench?

I agree that Shaq was the man in 2000. I give you that.

But 2001/2002 I do question who was the actual man.

He didn't sit in the last 2 minutes.

But he couldn't get the ball either except for lobs.

What you don't seem to understand is that it doesn't matter at all in the conversation at hand. He was the most dominant Laker player in 2000, 2001 and 2002. Wether he got ran out of town afterwards is irrelevant.

2000, yes. But in 2001 & 2002, Shaq's liability in crunchtime coupled with Kobe's 4th quarter take overs will cast doubt on whether that was Shaq's team. Kobe staying and Shaq leaving further puts the question of who's team it was all along.

All of this in retrospect, and it is debateable. But imagine how much stronger the case would be as Kobe wins more rings.

[ElNono]

Hack-a-Shaq was named after Shaq.

Did you look it up? Here:
The new rule stated that if the defensive team commits an off-the-ball foul within the last two minutes of the game, the offensive team would be allowed to keep possession of the ball after the awarding of either one or two free throws.

This was ins uted because Wilt was such a bad free throw shooter that he had to run from and dodge players as they chased him trying to foul him

I agree that Shaq was the man in 2000. I give you that. But 2001/2002 I do question who was the actual man. But he couldn't get the ball either except for lobs. 2000, yes. But in 2001 & 2002, Shaq's liability in crunchtime coupled with Kobe's 4th quarter take overs will cast doubt on whether that was Shaq's team. Kobe staying and Shaq leaving further puts the question of who's team it was all along.

Actually, Hack a Shaq was an issue basically in 2000 only, in the games I mentioned, as far as the 3 peat goes. Because at the end of 2000, Shaq was actually shooting 68% (best of his career), where it made fouling him ineffective (at least for the next couple of years).

[Allanon]

Did you look it up? Here:
The new rule stated that if the defensive team commits an off-the-ball foul within the last two minutes of the game, the offensive team would be allowed to keep possession of the ball after the awarding of either one or two free throws.

This was ins uted because Wilt was such a bad free throw shooter that he had to run from and dodge players as they chased him trying to foul him

But Hack-A-Shaq was named specifically for Shaq.

Actually, Hack a Shaq was an issue basically in 2000 only, in the games I mentioned, as far as the 3 peat goes. Because at the end of 2000, Shaq was actually shooting 68% (best of his career), where it made fouling him ineffective (at least for the next couple of years).

I would be surprised if teams don't Hack-a-Shaq again this year...he's had the same problem for 15 years.

I'm not sure how you can even say this when Pop did it himself Don't tell me you've forgotten this just a year ago?
During the 2008 preseason, O'Neal expressed his disapproval of [Spurs coach Gregg Popovich] and his team's use of the Hack-a-Shaq during the first round of the 2007 playoffs:

"The only thing I call cowardly is when you're up by 10 and do it. That's a coward move and [Popovich] knows that and I'll make them pay for it. "

[ElNono]

But Hack-A-Shaq was named specifically for Shaq.

Yes, but the rule to mitigate it was invented long before because of another great player that sucked at free-throws. Bottom line: You can't Hack-A-Shack in the last 2 minutes of any game.

I would be surprised if teams don't Hack-a-Shaq again this year...he's had the same problem for 15 years.

I didn't say that he didn't get worse way after 2000. He actually improved dramatically in Dec 2000 because the Lakers got him a free throw shooting coach, and he did improve to 68% then (which basically means it was always on him and his lack of hard work in that department, I'm not arguing that).
That said, at that point, teams stopped doing the hack-a-shaq because it simply didn't pay off. Pop didn't use Hack-A-Shaq in 2003 or 2004 either...
It was actually Phil with Bruise-a-Bruce and Hack-A-Wallace () that brought this things back... Pop obviously did use it when Shaq was a Sun...

[Allanon]

Yes, but the rule to mitigate it was invented long before because of another great player that sucked at free-throws. Bottom line: You can't Hack-A-Shack in the last 2 minutes of any game.

Ah you're talking about technicalities.

You can't Hack-a-Shaq in the last 2 minutes but you can foul him if he gets the ball.

I didn't say that he didn't get worse way after 2000. He actually improved dramatically in Dec 2000 because the Lakers got him a free throw shooting coach, and he did improve to 68% then (which basically means it was always on him and his lack of hard work in that department, I'm not arguing that).
That said, at that point, teams stopped doing the hack-a-shaq because it simply didn't pay off. Pop didn't use Hack-A-Shaq in 2003 or 2004 either...
It was actually Phil with Bruise-a-Bruce and Hack-A-Wallace () that brought this things back... Pop obviously did use it when Shaq was a Sun...

As far as I know Shaq's highest FT% was 62% one year and then dropped back to 49% the following year. And his current average is 52%.

So even after all these years, people are still doing Hack-a-Shaq and Shaq's still a liability due to his poor FT shooting.

And prior to Pop, it was the Pistons forcing Pat Riley to stoop down to that level:

—Miami Heat coach Pat Riley[20] after Game 3 of the 2006 Eastern Conference Finals in which the Detroit Pistons used the Hack-a-Shaq strategy against Heat center Shaquille O'Neal. Riley countered by employing the strategy against Pistons center Ben Wallace.

[KidCongo]

Didn't Shaq average the most points for those Lakers team in the 4th quarter. Swear I read that on this board in another Kobe/MJ thread earlier in the year.

[Culburn369]

No, you dreamn't that then woke up tangled in the sheets with Daddy.

[ChrisRichards]

No, you dreamn't that then woke up tangled in the sheets with Daddy.

[Killakobe81]

The one interesting argument is the one about explaining FG% difference with a "point per shot attempt" analysis. That's actually a pretty interesting way of looking at it. Don't really buy it completely, but that's one of the better arguments I've heard for it.

Most of the rest of it is is blatantly showered in Kobe homerism. He mentions how Michael punched Kerr and Perdue but ignored the fact Kobe punched Brian Cook in the back of the head on the team bus or how he even hits and smacks and elbows teammates in games for everyone to see or how he bashed Andrew Bynum on the street in that youtube clip. Michael may have been a horrible teammate and person as well, but you can't really argue Kobe is better.

Agreed. THEY BOTH were crappy team-mates. BUT the Jordan lovers/Kobe haters gloss over that fact.
I still agree that MJ was better BUT those that post MJ>>>>>>>>>>kobe are delusional ...Kobe is behind MJ maybe nort backseat but he is tailgating him at this point ...

[Donkeybong]

this article is horribly written but has a few good points.

[mogrovejo]

Holly cow!

When I think mogrovejo can't get more idiotic...

Lakers fan, there was no MVP Finals award when Russell was playing except in his last season (when, once again, he made Wilt, West and Baylor his es). Otherwise he'd have a bunch of them. Not that he'd care, individual awards are the kind of stuff Los Angeles players and fans value.

[Allanon]

Lakers fan, there was no MVP Finals award when Russell was playing except in his last season (when, once again, he made Wilt, West and Baylor his es). Otherwise he'd have a bunch of them. Not that he'd care, individual awards are the kind of stuff Los Angeles players and fans value.

Tool, you said he was eligible for the MVP Finals award but didn't win one.

The man with 11 rings could not even win 1 even when he won the championship that same year?

New bandwagon Celtic fans, I tell you.

[ChrisRichards]

laker fan educating a boston fan on the celtic's history, thats just cold

[noob cake]

Kobe wasn't first option for all his rings; Jordan was.

/kthxbai

[ChrisRichards]

Kobe wasn't first option for all his rings; Jordan was.

/kthxbai

hows ariza working out for you

kthxbai

[Killakobe81]

This stuff is hilarious ...the thng is ...why all the attention if Kobe is interchangeable with Pierce, Joe Johnson, VC, melo etc?
We don't have numerous threads here hating on any of the inetchangeable stars do we?
The reason why ...kobe is the best right now. Some like (me), some hate him (chris richards, miami heat) and others worship him (Kobe lovers).

Some hate him for Colorado, iness or because he Kills their team just when they think they had the game won (miami, Milwakee, Phoenix that means you)
But just the fact that there are this many threads of hate and many defending him (even smart Spur fans) tells me who is the best ...the fact that sinceMJ all others have fallen and Kobe is still standing toe to toe with Bron, Wade melo says enough ...

[mogrovejo]

Tool, you said he was eligible for the MVP Finals award but didn't win one.

Where? Link, please.

The man with 11 rings could not even win 1 even when he won the championship that same year?

New bandwagon Celtic fans, I tell you.

You're dense. The award was created in 1969, he only played that finals. He was only eligible to win 1 MVP Finals.

Let me quote myself:

Lakers fan, there was no MVP Finals award when Russell was playing except in his last season

Again:

Lakers fan, there was no MVP Finals award when Russell was playing except in his last season

Got it now?

[mogrovejo]

This stuff is hilarious ...the thng is ...why all the attention if Kobe is interchangeable with Pierce, Joe Johnson, VC, melo etc?
We don't have numerous threads here hating on any of the inetchangeable stars do we?
The reason why ...kobe is the best right now. Some like (me), some hate him (chris richards, miami heat) and others worship him (Kobe lovers).

Some hate him for Colorado, iness or because he Kills their team just when they think they had the game won (miami, Milwakee, Phoenix that means you)
But just the fact that there are this many threads of hate and many defending him (even smart Spur fans) tells me who is the best ...the fact that sinceMJ all others have fallen and Kobe is still standing toe to toe with Bron, Wade melo says enough ...

Get a clue: these discussions don't exist outside of message boards highly populated with Lakers fans.

[djohn2oo8]

hows ariza working out for you

kthxbai

Pretty good so far....Does Wade want out of Miami?