Why Kobe/Jordan Debate Is Closer Than It Seems

[Allanon]

Where? Link, please.

Read your own post below:

You're dense. The award was created in 1969, he only played that finals. He was only eligible to win 1 MVP Finals.

Let me quote myself:

Again:

Got it now?

Exactly. He was eligible to win 1 Finals MVP but he didn't. A man with 11 rings can't even win 1 Finals MVP. What excuse are you going to make for not winning a Finals MVP?

Did he have no chances to win a Finals MVP?

Read your own blather...Get it now?

[ElNono]

Ah you're talking about technicalities.
You can't Hack-a-Shaq in the last 2 minutes but you can foul him if he gets the ball.

Sorry, had to run and get some Xmas presents. Just show me that he wasn't there in the last 2 minutes of the game and you might have a point. But I remember the games and he was definitely out there and not getting hacked.

As far as I know Shaq's highest FT% was 62% one year and then dropped back to 49% the following year. And his current average is 52%.

O'Neal reached a low point in his free throw shooting during the 2000-2001 season, finding himself at a miserable 38% on the season in December 2000. At that time, the Lakers hired Ed Palubinskas, a 90% free throw shooter during his own playing days, to help coach O'Neal. The tactic seemed to eventually pay dividends and O'Neal shot almost 68% over the last 15 games of that season, prompting O'Neal at one point to loudly bark, "It doesn't work any more!" at his opposition when the Hack-a-Shaq strategy was being used.

From the Wikipedia entry on Hack-a-Shaq...
He did get worse after that... but you can't say it was this huge factor back then like you make it out to be...

[Allanon]

Sorry, had to run and get some Xmas presents.

All good, life is > than responses here.

Just show me that he wasn't there in the last 2 minutes of the game and you might have a point. But I remember the games and he was definitely out there and not getting hacked.

Really isn't worth the time to go look it up. We know Hack-A-Shaq happened then and it happens now. We know that Shaq had to be taken out of games because they were hacking him.

We know even as recent as Pop and Pat Riley, Hack-a-Shaq was still in effect.

O'Neal reached a low point in his free throw shooting during the 2000-2001 season, finding himself at a miserable 38% on the season in December 2000. At that time, the Lakers hired Ed Palubinskas, a 90% free throw shooter during his own playing days, to help coach O'Neal. The tactic seemed to eventually pay dividends and O'Neal shot almost 68% over the last 15 games of that season, prompting O'Neal at one point to loudly bark, "It doesn't work any more!" at his opposition when the Hack-a-Shaq strategy was being used.

From the Wikipedia entry on Hack-a-Shaq...
He did get worse after that... but you can't say it was this huge factor back then like you make it out to be...

It's still a huge factor today, not just back then. The man shoots 50% FT and is still a liability today as he was back then. He shot 68% for 15 games. Then went back to 49% the following year.

[TD4THREE]

Lefty, Jordan was a ball hog his whole career.

One of my favorite Jordan moments is when Jordan was asking for the ball and Pippen passed it to Kerr for an easy 2 and Jordan went off on him on national tv for not passing him the ball. You don't get more selfish than that.

Jordan took better shots than Kobe and didn't have to work as hard for his points, mainly because Kobe didn't have the ability to get to the rim at will like a Jordan or Lebron. Jordan shooting as much as he did is justified because most of the time it was the best shot on the floor. This wasn't always the case with Kobe especially when he had Shaq, who could get an easy bucket anytime he wants.

[noob cake]

hows ariza working out for you

kthxbai

Great, keeping us afloat with his chucking. Fantastic pickup for the next season when he won't have to chuck 18 shots a game. Fantastic defense as always (though not as good as Battier's, but expected)

[ElNono]

All good, life is > than responses here.

No, life is >>>>>>>>> responses here.

Really isn't worth the time to go look it up. We know Hack-A-Shaq happened then and it happens now. We know that Shaq had to be taken out of games because they were hacking him.
We know even as recent as Pop and Pat Riley, Hack-a-Shaq was still in effect.
It's still a huge factor today, not just back then. The man shoots 50% FT and is still a liability today as he was back then. He shot 68% for 15 games. Then went back to 49% the following year.

I don't disagree with that. You simply can't use that as a blanket excuse to say he was not THE MAN in lakers championships '00-'02.

[Allanon]

No, life is >>>>>>>>> responses here.

True.

I'm tired of arguing with you ElNono...this ain't going anywhere without insults. You're not a so I can't be a back.

Til next time

[ElNono]

Til next time

Till we're bored again...

[jacobdrj]

I think six too. At least four and maybe more tha six because he wouldn't be leaving the NBA for a year and a half because the commissioner asked him to in order to take some heat off a possible gambling scandal. In that era, after the Magic's Lakers, Bird's Celtics, and Isiah's Pistons were all finished or basically finished, there wasn't a championship team ready to take the crown except for the Bulls. The best compe ion in that 8 year stretch was probably the Utah Jazz and I think Kobe on the Bulls beat them both times too. I think Kobe on the Bulls beat Hakeem's Rockets as well, at least in 1994.

That is very interesting analysis.

So, you don't think Sir Charles and the Suns beat the Kobe-Bulls in 93?

[MiamiHeat]

If Jordan didn't exist, Kobe wouldn't exist.

He's copied his game, just like every other superstar SG since MJ.

[Allanon]

If Jordan didn't exist, Kobe wouldn't exist.

He's copied his game, just like every other superstar SG since MJ.

There definitely is truth in this and I agree Kobe owes alot to MJ.

MJ paved the way for Kobe. Why is it surprising that Kobe takes MJ's tricks and beats his own records with it.

Kobe ain't original, that's for sure, but he's a fine copycat.

[MiamiHeat]

What records has Kobe beaten? lemme know

[Double-Up]

I think six too. At least four and maybe more tha six because he wouldn't be leaving the NBA for a year and a half because the commissioner asked him to in order to take some heat off a possible gambling scandal. In that era, after the Magic's Lakers, Bird's Celtics, and Isiah's Pistons were all finished or basically finished, there wasn't a championship team ready to take the crown except for the Bulls. The best compe ion in that 8 year stretch was probably the Utah Jazz and I think Kobe on the Bulls beat them both times too. I think Kobe on the Bulls beat Hakeem's Rockets as well, at least in 1994.

I don't think so we had the ultimate perimeter defender in Vernon Maxwell. No way and we would beast on the inside on O and D. Nope, not possible.

[jacobdrj]

What records has Kobe beaten? lemme know

Most points by a non-center in a single game?

[jacobdrj]

I don't think so we had the ultimate perimeter defender in Vernon Maxwell. No way and we would beast on the inside on O and D. Nope, not possible.

Jordan managed to beat the best perimeter defender of all time, Dennis Rodman, in 1991, if I read my history right: Although, I was too young to watch either series

[Greg Oden]

Jordan managed to beat the best perimeter defender of all time, Dennis Rodman, in 1991, if I read my history right: Although, I was too young to watch either series

[Double-Up]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^

[jacobdrj]

And here I thought this was one of the more mature Kobe vs. threads.
Oh well.

[Double-Up]

And here I thought this was one of the more mature Kobe vs. threads.
Oh well.

Could you explain your post then? Dennis Rodman was a PF and didn't guard Jordan one on one very often if at all.

[jacobdrj]

Did you ever watch Rodman play? He was a PF that guarded every position when called to, sans maybe PG, except when that PG was like, Magic...

[MiamiHeat]

Most points by a non-center in a single game?

That's only for regular season

in the playoffs when it matters, Jordan holds the record at 63 pts


ok, so what else?

[namlook]

That's only for regular season

in the playoffs when it matters, Jordan holds the record at 63 pts


ok, so what else?

Since you agree the playoffs are when it matters I assume you agree that Kobe's teams have performed better than Lebron's teams in the playoffs and that's what matters.

[kingmalaki]

I think six too. At least four and maybe more tha six because he wouldn't be leaving the NBA for a year and a half because the commissioner asked him to in order to take some heat off a possible gambling scandal. In that era, after the Magic's Lakers, Bird's Celtics, and Isiah's Pistons were all finished or basically finished, there wasn't a championship team ready to take the crown except for the Bulls. The best compe ion in that 8 year stretch was probably the Utah Jazz and I think Kobe on the Bulls beat them both times too. I think Kobe on the Bulls beat Hakeem's Rockets as well, at least in 1994.

I don't think so. In 94 Hakeem dropped 29 a night on 52% in the playoffs. Kobe's main benefit is his offensive production, and even in his best postseason, he wasn't as effective of a scorer as Hakeem was in the 94 playoffs. This is not Shaq we are talking about, as in a guy who needs someone to close games for him. This is a center that you can go to down the stretch, and the Bulls frontline would have arguably been the weakest one Hakeem saw in 94, and they had no center worth holding so he (great help defender) could sit back and roam all day.

Jordan could pump more points and he was more efficient at it. Your SG having a FG% like a pivot makes a big difference.

[Mavs_man_41]

I don't think so. In 94 Hakeem dropped 29 a night on 52% in the playoffs. Kobe's main benefit is his offensive production, and even in his best postseason, he wasn't as effective of a scorer as Hakeem was in the 94 playoffs. This is not Shaq we are talking about, as in a guy who needs someone to close games for him. This is a center that you can go to down the stretch, and the Bulls frontline would have arguably been the weakest one Hakeem saw in 94, and they had no center worth holding so he (great help defender) could sit back and roam all day.

Jordan could pump more points and he was more efficient at it. Your SG having a FG% like a pivot makes a big difference.

glad to have you back, you're the only rocket fan i know of who knows the game of basketball. you should really stick around, your fanbase on spurstalk is really lacking. good work in that hakeem/duncan thread a while back

[namlook]

Jordan could pump more points and he was more efficient at it. Your SG having a FG% like a pivot makes a big difference.

Kobe shoots a lot more 3s than Jordan did which lowers his FG%. So you can't just compare FG% straight up to get a true picture since a lower percentage 3pt shot gives you more points. Shooting 35% from three is the same as shooting 52.5% from the field shooting 2pt shots in terms of point production.

"Jordan averaged 1.316 points per field goal attempt in his career, while Kobe has averaged 1.312 points per field goal attempt..

On average, when Jordan shot 20 times, he scored 26.3 points, while Kobe averages 26.2 points per every 20-shot attempts."

Efficiency per FG attempt is basically dead even between Jordan and Kobe.