Bulls think Joakim Noah Could be AllStar

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Nope.

edit: perhaps he's hit some in the regular season. I don't recall him hitting any really meaningful one in the playoffs when they really matter. And I wasn't saying Deng is necessarily better. I would say Iguodala is the better player. I'm saying Iguodala hasn't really shown anything that would make me say, "oh that was a huge mistake to have picked Deng over Iguodala."

Maybe not Deng over Iguodala, but IMO picking Deng period is something to be criticized. He's a bust.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

I never understood why the Bulls were so high on Deng. They could have had Pau.

Pau, they could have had Kobe but Paxson considered Deng an untouchable talent.

[JMarkJohns]

Nope.

edit: perhaps he's hit some in the regular season. I don't recall him hitting any really meaningful one in the playoffs when they really matter. And I wasn't saying Deng is necessarily better. I would say Iguodala is the better player. I'm saying Iguodala hasn't really shown anything that would make me say, "oh that was a huge mistake to have picked Deng over Iguodala."

LINK: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GQkHozhYoQ

Kid hasn't been in the playoffs too often to have his moments to shine.

[JamStone]

He has about six more than I can say Deng has... Better passer, equal shot, way better athlete, equal rebounder, better overall slasher, better defender.

I'd agree except for "equal shot." But again, my point wasn't that Deng is better. Rather, I'm saying Iguodala hasn't proven (in my opinion) to be the type of player to regret having passed up over Deng. For instance, if it were New Jersey in 1996 selecting Kerry Kittles over Kobe Bryant, then I'd agree. I don't think the difference is so major that the Bulls should cry over that decision to take Deng over Iguodala. Further, after selecting Gordon with the first lottery pick, the Bulls concentrated on taking a player at a different position. Although we know now that Iguodala is more than serviceable at the small forward position, Deng was a more natural fit at small forward. The Gordon selection also influenced the decision to take Deng over Iguodala.

At this point I'd say Deng is Deng. I think Iguodala has a bit more room before he hits his ceiling. And, since Jamstone brought mocks into it, Iguodala was mocked as high as 3rd overall, and most had him going 4th-through-6th, which is why Phoenix traded their pick in the first place. They coveted three players from that draft, Howard, Gordon and Iguodala, and each was slated unanimously to be gone in mocks by the time they drafted 7th. They couldn't reach a deal to move up, so they moved out. When Iguodala fell, the Suns offered the package they'd received from Chicago to Toronto and Philly in hopes of landing Iguodala, but Toronto needed a big man (Araujo) and Philly wanted Iguodala.

Iguodala has long been touted as a player with so much ceiling. They've said this ever since he's been in the league. He's one of those players scouts and GMs and coaches all say stuff like: wait until he puts it all together and figures it out. Well, this is his sixth season in the league already. How much more can he grow? When will he start reaching that potential. You say Deng is Deng. Well, I say five seasons into the league, getting starter minutes pretty much since day one of his career and never having any major injuries, Iguodala is pretty much Iguodala.

And, Andre Iguodala isn't one of the players I said wasn't projected to go high in the draft. I mentioned that with Amare and Butler and Nene. Not Iguodala. That isn't responsive to what I posted.

[JoeTait75]

Pau, they could have had Kobe but Paxson considered Deng an untouchable talent.

Is that for sure? That was the talk in the summer of 2006 but was there really an offer of Kobe-to-Chicago on the table?

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Is that for sure? That was the talk in the summer of 2006 but was there really an offer of Kobe-to-Chicago on the table?

It was summer of 2007 and Paxson publicly expressed he wasn't going to give any package involving Deng for Kobe.

[JamStone]

LINK: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-GQkHozhYoQ

Kid hasn't been in the playoffs too often to have his moments to shine.

Ok. Once. He's been in three post seasons, 17 games.

Deng had huge playoff performances in 2007 against the defending champs Miami Heat and the Detroit Pistons. Heck, he averaged 26 points, 9 rebounds, on 58% shooting against the Heat in that first round.

Once again, I'm not saying Iguodala isn't a good player. I'm not even saying he's not better than Deng. Overall, he's probably better, especially right now as Deng hasn't gotten back to his form since returning from his injuries from last year. However, I just don't think the difference is that great for the Bulls to lament over taking Deng over him.

[JamStone]

I never understood why the Bulls were so high on Deng. They could have had Pau.

Not the same draft.

[jonnybravo]

It was summer of 2007 and Paxson publicly expressed he wasn't going to give any package involving Deng for Kobe.

Little bit of both.

Kobe wasn't going to go to a Chicago team that was gutted for him. He was going to veto ANY trade that included Deng. In hindsight, obviously Kobe isn't much of a judge of talent because a combo of he and Deng wasn't going to do jack anyways.

It was a huge catch-22. Kobe wanted to go to a team with talent but any team with talent would have to give up said talent to get him. The Lakers could and would have pulled the trigger at that point during the negotiations but Kobe was the only player in the league with a complete veto power on any trade scenario involving him.

Buss wasn't going to take a crappy package and Kobe wasn't going to a crappy team.

The Bulls feelings towards Deng ranks about #134198374103478 on why that trade didn't happen.

That was a horrific off season that I hate to revisit.

[JamStone]

There was a trade proposed if I remember correct. Deng was this unmovable force for some reason.

Ok, thought you were talking about the 2004 draft.

As for that trade, I believe that was merely a rumor, but I'm not sure.

[JMarkJohns]

I'd agree except for "equal shot." But again, my point wasn't that Deng is better. Rather, I'm saying Iguodala hasn't proven (in my opinion) to be the type of player to regret having passed up over Deng. For instance, if it were New Jersey in 1996 selecting Kerry Kittles over Kobe Bryant, then I'd agree. I don't think the difference is so major that the Bulls should cry over that decision to take Deng over Iguodala. Further, after selecting Gordon with the first lottery pick, the Bulls concentrated on taking a player at a different position. Although we know now that Iguodala is more than serviceable at the small forward position, Deng was a more natural fit at small forward. The Gordon selection also influenced the decision to take Deng over Iguodala.

Fair enough... Can't say I'm not a bit biased towards Iggy, cause I am. I do think Iguodala is the better player, though not by far, though Deng is seemingly constantly injured, so, if that's factored in, then maybe...

Iguodala has long been touted as a player with so much ceiling. They've said this ever since he's been in the league. He's one of those players scouts and GMs and coaches all say stuff like: wait until he puts it all together and figures it out. Well, this is his sixth season in the league already. How much more can he grow? When will he start reaching that potential. You say Deng is Deng. Well, I say five seasons into the league, getting starter minutes pretty much since day one of his career and never having any major injuries, Iguodala is pretty much Iguodala.

And, Andre Iguodala isn't one of the players I said wasn't projected to go high in the draft. I mentioned that with Amare and Butler and Nene. Not Iguodala. That isn't responsive to what I posted.

I think this is fair. I think Iguodala was much more raw in many aspects of the game than was Deng upon entering the League, this, despite Deng being a year younger. Iggy was a track star throughout most of high school and was ridiculously raw his first season at Arizona. Had immense potential, but has mostly a finisher. His second season he started to put his slashing game together with a better handle and better pass awareness. This was enough of a glimpse to be selected in the lottery. He wasn't even close to being polished in any area. I've watched him as closely as one can from Arizona and I see him improving every year. It's not always drastically or statistically, but flaws are minimized each season. I would like to see better mid-range shooting, but he's solid. This is the one area I think he can and will most likely continue to improve.

Also, I wasn't using the mock in response to your analysis of Iguodala, merely referencing you claim for Jay Williams being a top-2 in most mocks, so I references Iggy's mocks to speak of his talent similarly.

As for his playoff performance, Iguodala averages nearly 21 ppg, 6 rpg, 7 apg and 2 spg in last season's playoff series vs. eventual conference representative Orlando. One of his playoff appearances came as a (very raw) rookie, the other a few years later. He struggled in his first two appearances, but to backup the season-to-season improvement that I've mentioned, he got drastically better with each playoff appearance (10-5-3 to 14-5-5 to 21-6-7).

At each player's best in the playoffs, you can't really argue one over the other, and Iggy does have that one buzzer beater to Deng's none...

Deng: 10 games - 22 ppg, 8 rpg, 2 apg, 1 spg on 52% FG, 00% 3FG
Iguodala: 6 games - 21 ppg, 6 rpg, 7 apg, 2 spg on 45% FG, 40% 3FG

I suppose I rate Iggy higher as I like my SFs to be athletic with 3-point range and passing ability.

[mystargtr34]

Well there's Dwight.... who is getting the reserve spot...

Bogut
Lopez
Horford
Noah
Shaq
Lee
Jermaine

Lopez and Bogut have the best numbers... but both are on losing teams. Id probly go with Bogut, but i dont think he deserves it.

[Indazone]

Holy crap Noah an All-Star? If he weren't playing on that overrated piece of crap team the Bulls he wouldn't be getting the minutes he's getting and he wouldn't even be mentioned in any All-Star talk. Al Horford is way better than Noah and they used to be teammates at Florida. Horford isn't ready to be an All-Star either but he deserves mention before Noah.

Noah = Eric Dampier of the East. LOL

[JMarkJohns]

Al Horford is way better than Noah and they used to be teammates at Florida. Horford isn't ready to be an All-Star either but he deserves mention before Noah.

Noah = Eric Dampier of the East. LOL

Wrong... Horford has talent, but he's no more skilled than Noah, save for maybe a bit better touch, but Noah is the vastly superior rebounder and shotblocker, as well as rotational defender. Neither deserves to be an All-Star, but Horford is not "way better" and Noah is not "Dampier of the East" ... Dampier hasn't put forth the effort in his career that Noah puts forth in a game. Statistically, I don't think Dampier has ever been top-3 in rebounding for the entire League.

Any team would be lucky to have Noah on its squad, if for no other reason, the kid never quits, does all the little things few people want to, plays solid defense with intensity, and rebounds like a young Rodman. Kid's got a high ceiling defensively and on the boards, and has solid low-post potential offensively as well. Little know fact, Noah was 6-5 when he was a HS senior. At age 24, he's only been near seven foot since around age 19/20. The Kid is still developing/growing into his body.

[endrity]

If we take for granted the fact that KG and LBJ will be the starters at the forward spots, then a coach surely could vote for Bosh as the center in their ballots. With all due respect to Noah, Horford and Bogut neither is an All-Star in my mind, though Bogut comes closest I think.

However with Bosh as the center there will be more deserving players getting in at the forward spots, such as Josh Smith for example.

In fact, since we are on the subject what should the East squad be? I am not sure, there is a sudden drop in talent after about half of the spots are filled.

Starting 5
C: Howard
PF: KG
SF: LBJ
SG: Wade
PG: J.Johnson ??? (I am not really sure here, who has been the second best guard in the East? Jennings started off amazing but has tailed off quite a bit now)

Bench
Bosh
J.Smith
Pierce ?? He's a Celtic so he'll get in but he's been pretty average I think
Jennings
Mo Williams?? - He's picked it up quite a bit now in last couple of games

I am completely unsure for the last two spots. There is very little in my mind that divides Arenas, Carter, Rondo, Turkoglu???, G.Wallace, Jamison and maybe someone else. I guess because of the team success Carter and Rondo will get it. After all the talk of how the East is getting better you really realize that it's only top-heavy, the dropoff after that is sudden and it's hard to find enough talent to fill a decent All-Star squad. It's completely different in the West where again someone deserving will be left out.

[endrity]

By the way, here's what I think the West should be:

Stat, Dirk, Melo, Kobe, CP3
Nash, Roy, Duncan, Gasol, Durant
Billups, D.Williams