His offense gets compromised if you have 350 lb Shaq demanding the ball. I don't see how that would be the case if you had Marcus Camby in his prime or somebody like that who could run the floor and throw a good outlet pass.
If he's trying to help his team by leaving his man wide open while running around trying to get credit for a turnover, then Allen Iverson was helping his team whenever he tried to go for a steal and in the process left his man wide open. The only difference is one is a white guy who loves trees and one is a black guy who hates practice.
And Amare's problems are mental limitations. There's nothing Amare can do to become smarter. You can't fault someone for naturally being an idiot.
EDIT: Last thing I say about Amare in this thread. Amare isn't in the discussion as a top 10 player, using the defensive ability of a non top 10 player to excuse the bad defense of a top 10 player makes no sense and is stupid. This argument has nothing to do with Amare, it has everything to do with Nash. If you want to talk about Amare's defense, feel free to create a thread about how good you seem to think the Suns defense will be when Amare is gone. I'm not arguing about Amare and never was. Quit trying to stear the argument in a completely different direction because you know it's impossible to stay on topic when you're trying to create a legitimate argument that Nash tries his hardest on defense.
Last edited by DUNCANownsKOBE2; 01-08-2010 at 11:30 AM.
I don't understand how a role player like Kobe can be considering a top 5 player in the league. It's easy to make scoring averages like he does when you throw up 25 shots a game and get to the line at least 8 times.
No chance. The Suns didn't have the size to guard the Lakers' huge front line.
Last edited by namlook; 01-08-2010 at 02:28 PM.
And I don't understand why you think you know anything about of the game of basketball.
This might be the winner for most ignorant post of the year.
He can have his chucker nights, but arguing that Kobe isn't a top 5 player in the league is re ed.
If Nash is leaving his man open, it's to force a turnover that gets his team the ball back, not get something to fill up the box score. You should know by now he doesn't care about stats. And the difference between Iverson and Nash is that in their primes, one could run an offense and the other couldn't.
No, Amare's problems are laziness. He doesn't have the bball IQ of Nash, Kobe or Duncan, but he's not some drooling idiot that bangs his head against the wall repeatedly. I've heard him say all the right things in interviews countless times, which means he's sentient enough to understand the difference between selfish play and team-oriented play.
If I'm a Suns fan, I appreciate that Nash leaves everything out on the court. I might get frustrated at how he gambles on defense, but I don't question his commitment or his effort. Amare, on the other hand, would drive me crazy with his lackadaisical effort towards defense. Lack of ability is one thing, lack of effort is another. You say Amare is too dumb to learn how to play the "right way" and I don't think that's the case at all.Amare isn't in the discussion as a top 10 player, using the defensive ability of a non top 10 player to excuse the bad defense of a top 10 player makes no sense and is stupid. This argument has nothing to do with Amare, it has everything to do with Nash. If you want to talk about Amare's defense, feel free to create a thread about how good you seem to think the Suns defense will be when Amare is gone. I'm not arguing about Amare and never was. Quit trying to stear the argument in a completely different direction because you know it's impossible to stay on topic when you're trying to create a legitimate argument that Nash tries his hardest on defense.]
So you're actually trying to justify a player leaving someone open, wow. Awesome. If A.I. is leaving his man open to try and get a steal or poke a ball loose, is that also not trying to force a turnover, which evidently justifies leaving a player open?
And yes, he cares plenty about stats. Assists are as much of a stat as points are. If he didn't care about assists he wouldn't run around pounding the air out of the ball until an assist opportunity presented itself.
Neither Iverson nor Nash can "run an offense". The only offense those two can effectively run is where the ball is in their hands nearly all the time and nearly every FG scored is a FG they score or get an assist off of. As far running a tradition half court offense that requires movement with and without the ball from all players while no player holds onto the ball for too long, Nash would suck at that just as much as Iverson would.
Where did I ever say that Iverson was trying to get a steal for a steal's sake instead of trying to help his team? I don't really care for Iverson's game, but I'd never accuse him of not wanting to win or not kill himself for his teams. As for roaming, Kobe does it all the time...if his player isn't an offensive threat, and sometimes even if he is, he'll roam the passing lanes playing free safety and then try to scramble back to his man when the ball rotates. It's not a bad strategy 100% of the time.
Yeah, he's just trying to get assists to pad his totals. It's not about scoring baskets for his team. The Suns have been first in offensive efficiency almost the entire time he's been in Phoenix.And yes, he cares plenty about stats. Assists are as much of a stat as points are. If he didn't care about assists he wouldn't run around pounding the air out of the ball until an assist opportunity presented itself.
Iverson played 1 on 5 most of his career because he wanted to win on his terms and he believed that was the best way he could help his teams win. And I'm pretty sure just about every guy who has ever played with him would say Nash was definitely a Point Guard in every sense of the word. You're usually a pretty good poster, but your Nash opinions are weak takes in my opinion. No offense or anything personal intended.Neither Iverson nor Nash can "run an offense". The only offense those two can effectively run is where the ball is in their hands nearly all the time and nearly every FG scored is a FG they score or get an assist off of.
No, he'd just be a borderline All Star like he was in Dallas. The Mavs played up tempo but there were also times when they'd walk it up and have to run traditional half court sets.As far running a tradition half court offense that requires movement with and without the ball from all players while no player holds onto the ball for too long, Nash would suck at that just as much as Iverson would.
Nash might not have the physical talent of Russell Westbrook or D Rose but he's not some paraplegic physically handicapped gimp. I've seen Nash play disciplined, physically demanding defense countless times, which means he's physically good enough to play semi-average defense.
Except when he has a coach who he doesn't like and wants to get fired.
But it's really not a big deal when those gambles lead to career scoring nights for the other team's point guard. It "might get frustrating" when avoidable mistakes and gambles cost the team games.
I don't question his commitment or effort to drawing charges and trying to force turnovers either.
The right way is staying on your man and doing what you can to limit the amount of easy opportunities he has. Regardless of whether or not Amare plays "the right way" on defense, Nash doesn't, which is what I have a problem with. If you want to talk about Amare not playing the right way, make a thread about it. You won't find too many people who disagree.
Nash's roaming and Kobe's roaming are completely different. When Kobe roams he's also communicating with his teammates and doing it because they guy he's guarding isn't a huge threat. Nash's teammates have no idea whether he'll be roaming on a possession or guarding someone. He might play really committed defense against a non offensive threat, and he might decide to leave Chris Paul a wide open driving lane.
Their first in offensive efficiency has nothing to do with the half court plays I'm referring to with horrible movement from the team when Nash dribbles the air out of the ball. A play usually resulting in Nash taking a contested fadeaway or Amare trying to create a shot for himself (not pretty) as the shot clock is close to running out. This is the play you could count on seeing in the last 3 minutes of a Spurs Suns playoff game when the Suns snatch defeat from the jaws of victory.
That sure worked out well for him.
Except for Shaq, Joe Johnson and Quentin Richardson.
IMO your Nash takes are ill-informed, and IMO you're forgetting how flawed the Mavs were when they had Nash.
Be real. What kind of performance could you expect from the Don Nelson Mavs when they were in a grind it out half court game where the team that executes the best half court sets wins? Was Nash a borderline all star because he ran traditional half court sets in Dallas well, or because he made Dallas a good fast break team?
Last edited by DUNCANownsKOBE2; 01-08-2010 at 03:54 PM.
You forgot to mention what Nash did to the Mavs in the 2005 playoffs. The Mavs didn't instantly get better by letting Nash go or they would have beat the Suns that year. The next season, the Mavs lucked out to beat a Suns team without Amare. Sure the Mavs improved defensively, but don't claim getting rid of Nash was the main reason. Nash was on a team with soft defenders like Shawn Bradley and Antoine Walker. No team can be successful defensively if Shawn Bradley is your starting center.
2003-2004 Mavs: 52 wins, lost in 1st round
2004-2005 Mavs: 58 wins, lost in 2nd round
The fact they lost to Nash is irrelevant. They were a better team the year after Nash left than they were the last year they had Nash. They won more regular season games and advanced further in the playoffs, if that's not better then idk what the is.
They also beat the Spurs. Something they weren't able to do when Nash was on their team.
It was one of the many things that needed to happen in order for Dallas to get good defensively. Just like this current Phoenix team, the act of getting rid of Nash by itself won't magically transform the Suns into a good defensive team, but it's one of many things that will need to happen for the Suns to become a good defensive team.
The last season Nash was on Dallas, Shawn Bradley played 11 minutes a game and started 5 games. But you're right, I'm sure Shawn Bradley, the starting center who only started 5 games and 9th leading minute getter on the 2003-2004 Mavericks, is the reason they sucked defensively.
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