48MoH: The Science Was Sound

[Blackjack]

The Science Was Sound
by Timothy Varner

I’d argue that the science was sound. Three past-their-prime vets for a dynamic wing. In a vacuum, you make that move every time. It was a good move. Kudos to R.C. Buford.

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[timvp]

I agree with the take that the RJ trade was a good one. With what the Spurs needed and the small price they had to pay, it was impossible to turn down the RJ trade. The Spurs acknowledged there were risks and that RJ would have to change his style of play. Unfortunately, we are witnessing the worst side of that risk come to life.

As bad as it is, the RJ trade is still better than the Carter trade. Carter has been pretty damn bad plus the Spurs would have given away Hill in the deal. That's not to mention how Carter and Manu wouldn't be able to co-exist.

Against the Lakers, I didn't see RJ's "fit" being much of a problem. It was more just that he wasn't coming through in the spots that were available. RJ couldn't have asked for much better looks offensively or better matchups defensively to make an impact. He just failed.

[Allanon]

The science was sound back then. But if you really think about it, it's one of those "WTF were we thinking" deals.

This stems from the fact that Richard Jefferson can't shoot; and never was able to either.

When you put that into the context of Tony, Bogans, RJ, Tim and Dice that's 5 guys on the court that can't hit a 3 pointer to save their life. That's not going to work.

[Blackjack]

If I’m correct, then trading one set of chemistry issues for another isn’t a 1:1 exchange. Rather, it’s an opportunity to find a better mix of players. One whose sense of the game is more conducive to one another. Plus, it gives the new mix an opportunity to play together for half a season prior to next summer’s training camp. It’s an opportunity to put the pieces in place for next season’s championship run.

This is where I'm at, and have been for a couple of months. It's a talented team, but an ill-fitted one. It looks promising on paper when you look at the names, but not necessarily if you look at their actual games.

There's still the possibility that Tim could perform at a high enough level for them to find the right pieces and fit for them to win the le next year. But some savvy and, maybe even bold, moves will definitely have to be made; next year is the last year this window remains ajar.

I realize the looming CBA prevents one from wanting to commit to anymore salary, but how often do you have a Tim Duncan in your midst and have the opportunity to win a le? And, , maybe taking on the salary isn't as ominous as it first seems: players' current contracts might be subject to restructuring when it's all said and done and, at the very least, there should be a grace period that would allow for some current contracts to be grandfathered.

So it's a gamble; the CBA forces it to be.

But isn't that what "all-in" is all about?

[ShoogarBear]

The science was sound back then. But if you really think about it, it's one of those "WTF were we thinking" deals.

This stems from the fact that Richard Jefferson can't shoot; and never was able to either.

When you put that into the context of Tony, Bogans, RJ, Tim and Dice that's 5 guys on the court that can't hit a 3 pointer to save their life. That's not going to work.

No, it's not a "WTF were we thinking" deal. You do that deal 1000 times out of 1000. RJ was clearly overpaid and not the 2-way player he had been previously, but had always ben a good citizen and there were not indications that he wouldn't respond to coaching. (And to be fair, he still saying all the right things, he just doesn't seem to get it.) Statistically he hasn't been that far off from previous years, but the biggest disappointment has just been the lack of aggressiveness and hustle.

Second, his three-point shooting had been good enough over the previous two years to fit in, but what he was really supposed to bring on offense was a slashing element, and that's what has not panned out.

[timvp]

This stems from the fact that Richard Jefferson can't shoot; and never was able to either.

RJ shot 40% on threes last year. On a team that drew virtually no double-teams. The Spurs thinking he'd be able to shoot in their system wasn't exactly a stretch.

I also doubt the Spurs could have expected RJ going from an 80% free throw shooter to Shaq with a bad goatee.

[ElNono]

I agree that it was worth a shot. But many things went wrong this season, not just RJ. Even though Dice has picked up his game lately, he's been another disappointment so far too. Not at the scale of RJ, but he also didn't turn out to be the guy that was going to help TD stay fresh and protect the paint.
Tony hobbled from the get go. Manu losing a step. Bogans not being the stopper we hoped for. Pop and his stubborness of playing people out of position all season long.

Very frustrating.

[Allanon]

RJ shot 40% on threes last year. On a team that drew virtually no double-teams. The Spurs thinking he'd be able to shoot in their system wasn't exactly a stretch.

I also doubt the Spurs could have expected RJ going from an 80% free throw shooter to Shaq with a bad goatee.

RJ's 3 point shooting has always been predicated on his regular slashing game. When he gets in a groove getting points at the basket he starts making his 3 point shots.

RJ needs the ball to be effective, he's not the "off the ball" kind of player. The Spurs don't offer him the slashing or transition game.

In the Spurs offense with Tim and Tony taking up the bulk of the paint points, he's a spot up shooter, something he's never been good at.

As Shoogardbear says, you do that deal 100 out of 100 times. I do agree that on paper or in science, he looks like he would be great.

You can't fault the Spurs FO for making the deal...it was a good deal for what was given up.

But reality says he'll never be effective with these players because he's just not a spot up shooter. He just isn't good spotting up for 3's now and he never was good at it before either.

[Bartleby]

Like most Spurs fans I've become increasingly pessimistic about the Spurs chances over the last few weeks, but I'm not ready to call the RJ experiment a total failure just yet.

I'm hoping some sort of tweaking of the lineup, a trade, and/or a solid win over an elite team (Denver?) will help him/the team right the ship. That said, if it doesn't happen during the RRT, I don't see it happening at all.

[Sean Cagney]

The science was sound back then. But if you really think about it, it's one of those "WTF were we thinking" deals.

This stems from the fact that Richard Jefferson can't shoot; and never was able to either.

When you put that into the context of Tony, Bogans, RJ, Tim and Dice that's 5 guys on the court that can't hit a 3 pointer to save their life. That's not going to work.

Right! He had a good year shooting last year from three land, but I remember in the fianls in 03 the Spurs left him alone out there to shoot and he couldn't hit the side of the barn, if he was not getting a putback or slashing in for a Kidd pass he was handled! I remember that all to well and never was a big fan of this dude.

It is funny I tried to like him and give him a shot, now it's back to not liking the dude and he is on our team now so I have to see him nightly almost

Like most Spurs fans I've become increasingly pessimistic about the Spurs chances over the last few weeks, but I'm not ready to call the RJ experiment a total failure just yet.

I'm hoping some sort of tweaking of the lineup, a trade, and/or a solid win over an elite team (Denver?) will help him/the team right the ship. That said, if it doesn't happen during the RRT, I don't see it happening at all.

We have been waiting for that solid win over a team to right the ship all year, it just won't happen with this squad (They don't have it).

A trade is needed, a twak in the lineup or two is needed, till then it's over.

[Obstructed_View]

The science is still sound. Jefferson can play this game, and can contribute. Whether or not he gets it figured out is the question, but he has until the Spurs are eliminated to turn it around.

[timvp]

Right! He had a good year shooting last year from three land, but I remember in the fianls in 03 the Spurs left him alone out there to shoot and he couldn't hit the side of the barn

RJ shot one three-pointer in the 2003 Finals.

[HarlemHeat37]

I was never concerned about his role offensively..I still don't even care THAT much about his offense, although it appears that his confidence may be shattered, and he's missing tons of open shots now..

His defense was horrible for the last 2 years, they thought they could fix, it hasn't worked..simple as that..he was a slightly better rebounder last year, but nothing to talk about..

They thought they could change him, we believed they could, it simply hasn't and won't work out..

The worst part is that there was some bad luck involved too..if Stephen Jackson was officially put on the block just a little earlier, would the Spurs have went after him instead?..with the $ issue, I'd say absolutely..

[Dice]

Richard Jefferson looked good to me in a couple of games this season, and that was when some if not all of the Big 3 were injured. He was comfortable dominating the ball and playing a less half court style. These days, he looks like he's out there just trying not to screw up.

I also blame the slow start of McDyess for putting this team so far back in the standings. He's doing much better overall now but it took to long and Pop doesn't have enough confidence in him aparently to leave him in games. Is that Pop's fault? If Dice had played better early on maybe he'd have earned the right to be in at the end. I also believe the improved play of Mcdyess would have turned a few losses this year in the spurs favor.


But I'm still of the opinion that they're going to do much better than expected come playoff time. By god if this team ever gets hot, they'll beat anyone.

[pad300]

I agree with the take that the RJ trade was a good one. With what the Spurs needed and the small price they had to pay, it was impossible to turn down the RJ trade. The Spurs acknowledged there were risks and that RJ would have to change his style of play. Unfortunately, we are witnessing the worst side of that risk come to life.

As bad as it is, the RJ trade is still better than the Carter trade. Carter has been pretty damn bad plus the Spurs would have given away Hill in the deal. That's not to mention how Carter and Manu wouldn't be able to co-exist.

Against the Lakers, I didn't see RJ's "fit" being much of a problem. It was more just that he wasn't coming through in the spots that were available. RJ couldn't have asked for much better looks offensively or better matchups defensively to make an impact. He just failed.

Yeah, the basic trade was good. The follow up signings, though were mishandled (at least in part).

They guys sent out were Bowen, KT and Oberto. The floor roles they filled were all defensive.

To replace that defensive presence we brought in Dice; who's not been strong defensively, although he does appear to get better, Blair, who's not strong defensively, although he does make up for some with his rebounding. So the bigs were a defensive downgrade. We don't play Ratliff or Ian, either of whom has a shot at being a defensive upgrade, due to athleticism & size. Dice I actually still like, I think we haven't seen the best of him. Ratliff has been a waste of time (Which is pretty much on Pop; given how he's "using" Ratliff, we'd be better off with an empty roster spot, just because of tax and salary...)

Also, we didn't re-sign Bowen. Bowen >>> Bogans. Right now, coming out of the TV booth, I would pick Bowen over Bogans. Add in the professionalism, tone-setting and leadership that Bowen brought - yes, having him on the team drove other players to try harder on D! It's a no brainer, especially after Bowen demonstrated he was still reliable playing against Dallas in last year POs (being the only one of our swingmen who played with some balls!). Instead the Spurs got left with Jefferson/Bogans/Finley as perimeter "stoppers". That just ain't gonna cut it. With Bowen, it gets a whole lot better. Especially if Finley wears a sportscoat, and Hairston gets to be 5th swing (Bowen, Jefferson, Manu, Mason, Hairston). These decisions are blatant, and they fall on Pop.

[Cane]

Yup the chemistry seems to be the chief problem with the Spurs. On paper and in video games the Spurs are a bad ass team but in real life they've been inconsistent as .

And it was, still is, and in the near future will be very difficult for any team in the West to really stack up to the Lakers especially due to this guy:



Who is having a good season and likely only to get better. It was an uphill battle for the league ever since the Lakers grabbed him and even with health issues they're still top in the West. Even with all the hype surrounding this summer's offseason trades they were the safe and smart no.1 pick.

[Spursmania]

We had the best of times and now we are having the worst of times.