Blast from the Past: Spurs' offense then and now.

[MaNu4Tres]

It really is amazing to look back and watch how effective Duncan used to be. The guy lead a Derek Anderson less, Terry Porter and Danny Ferry starting lineup to the Western Conference Finals in 2001.

Watching the Lakers game Tuesday reminded me how much we miss his overall presence inside. Contested jumper after contesed ill-advised jumper. Hill from 15 feet clang, Mason from 22 feet clang, Jefferson from 17 feet clang were the descriptions of the majority of the Spurs possessions Tuesday as the game carried on. These descriptions have been becoming a trend more and more against the good teams in the league as the game progresses. You need a dominant force inside to create efficient opportunities against good teams. The pick and roll with Parker or Ginobili get's easier and easier to defend if you run the play every time down the floor. Good teams make this adjustment defensively and clamp down, bad teams don't. Which is evident by our record vs. teams over and under .500.

Back then Spurs ran the offense inside and out and it would hide the major liabilities Danny Ferry,Terry Porter, Mario Elie, Steve Smith, Charles Smith, Ira Newble, and Steve Kerr coveted. People seem to forget Duncan carried these teams with no talent deep into the playoffs year in and year out from 98-2002.

In this offense Duncan was the engine, being the first option, from facing up in the triple threat position or with his back to the basket, creating efficient opportunities for himself and his teammates. Rarely was he's used as a screener 1-3 times down the floor like he is now with Parker and Manu.

Turn to 2010, he is no where near as dominant as he used to be inside, the Spurs rely too heavily on the pick and roll offense ( using Tim as the screen and pop guy the majority of the time). Yes Tim's numbers have been superb for the most part this year, but he gets the majority of his points created from his teammates opposed to the glory days. Luckily his finishing ability around the rim and mid range jumper are efficient and has prolonged his productivity during his last stanza. But this doesn't necessarily make things easier for his teammates like it used to.

People want to point out Richard Jefferson, desperately needing another big guy, Manu or Tony's participation in the NT for this disappointing year. But one thing people haven't pointed out is that Tim is no longer Tim. And with Tim no longer being Tim and combining that aspect with the upgrades and improvements the teams around the league have made has lead to the Spurs demise.

Here is a game, which demonstrates how the inside and out offense lead a Terry Porter and Danny Ferry to the Conference Finals.

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[HarlemHeat37]

Obviously this was expected though..Duncan wasn't even supposed to be our #1 option coming into the season, the Spurs were supposed to be prepared for his decline with age..everybody recognized his decline well before this season..most people here believe that Duncan has heavily exceeded expectations from an offensive standpoint and I would agree with that..

Part of the reason many of us said that it would be difficult to win a le was because our best player was past his prime in a league where it's extremely difficult to win a le without an elite player..the plan was for Parker to remain at the level he played at last season though, where he was single handily carrying this team to wins, and that's probably the biggest letdown for me..

Duncan's decline in defensive is a bigger issue to me IMO..he was enough to anchor the paint and cover the deficiencies of the defensive liabilities on the team..

[ElNono]

Execution is top notch there too. You will rarely see a bad shot taken there. Also notice how Ferry always rotates properly on offense to post up timmy. It all looks scripted.

Watching the DRob and Timmy combo you have to wonder how in the they managed to win only two les together. The rebounding is phenomenal.

[MI21]

I actually think when Tim has been getting touches in the paint, low block and mid-post extended he has been very effective this season. Teams don't hard double him quite as much, but they do still double often and the helpside and topside defense still sag and play off of their man. He is still helping his teammates when he gets the ball down low.

But for reasons we have heard from Pop about conserving his body for the playoffs, minimizing the contact he takes night in and night out and just generally trying to lighten the load on him offensively, we have seen him placed a little further out on the floor. That's not on Tim, that's on the strategy.

Also, I have seen Tim fighting for position down low on many occasions and him not being fed. This is where someone like Horry is missed, who was just a fantastic post entry passer. The best post entry passer left on this team is probably the guy starting next to him, Dice, which obviously isn't ideal.

I have no worries that come the playoffs (if the Spurs makes it ) that Tim will be back in his rightful spot down low a lot more of the time, commanding double teams and putting the opposition in foul trouble.

It won't be enough to win though, not with this defense.

[MaNu4Tres]

Obviously this was expected though..Duncan wasn't even supposed to be our #1 option coming into the season, the Spurs were supposed to be prepared for his decline with age..everybody recognized his decline well before this season..most people here believe that Duncan has heavily exceeded expectations from an offensive standpoint and I would agree with that..

Part of the reason many of us said that it would be difficult to win a le was because our best player was past his prime in a league where it's extremely difficult to win a le without an elite player..the plan was for Parker to remain at the level he played at last season though, where he was single handily carrying this team to wins, and that's probably the biggest letdown for me..

Duncan's decline in defensive is a bigger issue to me IMO..he was enough to anchor the paint and cover the deficiencies of the defensive liabilities on the team..

I think he can still defend at a high level. I don't think it's a bigger issue that's where I disagree. We can't score consistently against good teams when it counts for the last 20 minutes of the game. It was even the case last year against the Mavericks. We'd start out strong like in game 1, but when we go " all in" essentially with the pick and roll , good teams figure that out and clamp down. This forces highly contested long jumpers as the clock is winding down. This has been real evident this year.

Now I do agree that we've bigger problems defensively, but I think that has to with other factors other than Duncan. Such as a wing defender, or wings with lateral quickness and foot speed to stay in front of the penetrators.(Which are two attributes Jefferson/Mason/Bogans/Finley/ and Manu to a degree all lack). A defensive big would also help in this case. Duncan isn't the culprit for the defensive demise. The guy can still defend at a high level. IMO.

[Cane]

Yea you definitely have to keep in mind that not only is Duncan older nowadays but he's averaging fewer minutes and is saving his body for the playoffs. Despite this he's putting up great numbers and has a positive impact on the court; but there are 16 minutes or so when he's not on the court.

It'd be a godsend if we could get not only another Hall of Famer big but more importantly it'd be nice to have some god damn team chemistry!

[DesignatedT]

that was 9 years ago. guys age. its part of the game. all the other pieces we have now are supposed to make up for that.

the guy is 33 years old.. what more do you want him to do. he is by far the least of our problems

[TD 21]

The only thing Duncan has lost is mobility, which is most evident defensively. Look how fluid his movements were in his younger days; he was underrated athletically and mobility wise. He was never a freakish athlete, but he was a good one. His durability and stamina were unbelievable then, too. The guy was an absolute horse, averaging 38-40 mpg for a lot of years. You look at today, it's a big deal if anybody (and it's always a perimeter player) plays 40 mpg; Duncan once averaged 40.6. This from a guy who used to play even more in the post, where it's already more physical and was even more so when he was younger. In the playoffs, he would often play 45-47 minutes without any noticeable drop in play.

The only other difference is for some reason he brings out less and less of his post repertoire by the year. We all know he's got virtually every move in the book, but for some reason we just don't see many of them anymore. Not until the playoffs, at least.

[MaNu4Tres]

that was 9 years ago. guys age. its part of the game. all the other pieces we have now are supposed to make up for that.

the guy is 33 years old.. what more do you want him to do. he is by far the least of our problems

What does the le of the thread say?

[DesignatedT]

What does the le of the thread say?

seems like your implying that him on the decline is the problem with this team... and how he has no presence inside.

the guy is 33 years old and still a major presence on both sides of the floor.

its actually pretty amazing the level hes still playing at.. after all those games regular season and playoffs that hes played

[HarlemHeat37]

I didn't mean to say Duncan is the main problem defensively..I believe he's still a good defender too..it just seems like Pop and the front office view him as the same defensive player that could make up for our defensive liabilities..that's the only thing that makes sense to me since it's obvious that the majority of our wing defenders are major liabilities on the defensive end, yet they've done nothing to correct this for 2 years now..

I also agree with TD 21 that Duncan doesn't bring out his moves often enough..a lot of the time it seems like he's just playing to draw a foul and forces his offense too much..he used the drop step well, he uses his left hand very well, he's very good at using fakes, yet he rarely uses any of these moves anymore..

[DesignatedT]

I didn't mean to say Duncan is the main problem defensively..I believe he's still a good defender too..it just seems like Pop and the front office view him as the same defensive player that could make up for our defensive liabilities..that's the only thing that makes sense to me since it's obvious that the majority of our wing defenders are major liabilities..

I also agree with TD 21 that Duncan doesn't bring out his moves often enough..a lot of the time it seems like he's just playing to draw a foul and forces his offense too much..

Its hard for any 7 footer to protect the paint when the "big" man next to you is 6'5.

[HarlemHeat37]

I don't understand why you quoted me to say that..where did I say it was easy?..Duncan's defense has obviously declined though, there's no question about it..he's not nearly as mobile as he once was..while he's still a good defender, a prime Duncan was the best anchor in the NBA IMO..

It would obviously be easier to play with another big and to have competent perimeter defenders, but I'm just saying..

[MaNu4Tres]

Its hard for any 7 footer to protect the paint when the "big" man next to you is 6'5.

Or when your perimeter defenders have no ability to stay in front of their man.

[MaNu4Tres]

seems like your implying that him on the decline is the problem with this team... and how he has no presence inside.

the guy is 33 years old and still a major presence on both sides of the floor.

its actually pretty amazing the level hes still playing at.. after all those games regular season and playoffs that hes played

I was implying how inefficient our offense has become against good teams. Especially as the game goes on. It seems like every shot we get from the pick and roll is a highly contested one.

[DesignatedT]

Duncan is still very much capable of anchoring the paint...... when he was " the best anchor in the NBA" which guys were playing next to him?? Robinson? Rasho? Nazr? Horry? Oberto?

Of course a player is going to start declining... thats like saying an apple wont go bad. but his "decline in defense" is not a big issue simply because its not an issue at all..

the problem is the guy next to him is 6 foot 5 inches.

[MaNu4Tres]

the problem is the guy next to him is 6 foot 5 inches.

Or when your perimeter defenders have no ability to stay in front of their man.

[scottspurs]

Tim Duncan is great. Then and Now

[tim_duncan_fan]

Tim is great. Tim is good. Let us thank him for our food(championships).

[Parker2112]

Guys, watch him jump tomorrow, especially late in the game. He's is not jumping more than a few inches off the ground. On shots, defending, his feet are glued to the floor. The knees are ailing. He has no lift... no spring. This is consistent with the way he looked late last season, just not as bad....yet.

He still knows how to get the job done, but he is not the same Tim. Rest assured the FO keeps tabs on his limitations/medical status on a day to day basis. Timmy has even said he needs to ride his teamates for a change.

But the days of us riding Tim to a le are done. He has essentially become Robinson after Timmy's arrival.

So it's obvious he needs some help up front. And some help in the backcourt too.

[DesignatedT]

But the days of us riding Tim to a le are done. He has essentially become Robinson after Timmy's arrival.

So it's obvious he needs some help up front. And some help in the backcourt too.

i wouldnt go that far just yet.

but theres no doubt this team needs its roll players to play well to win. we knew that before this season started.

[Parker2112]

i wouldnt go that far just yet.

but theres no doubt this team needs its roll players to play well to win. we knew that before this season started.

Its hard to judge, because Robinson's numbers would have been totally different had TD not arrived...even with Timmy here Robinson had substantial rebounds and blocks. But Tim needs someone to do the hard rotations and the rebounding. There is no doubt that teams have figured out how to exploit him when we play small..

[Parker2112]

Tim would be fine if we had Horry of '05 even...

[Man In Black]

Tim is playing as awesome as ever, it's his team that isn't cohesive...yet.
That 01 Playoff team was fine up until the conf finals where I saw it live and in color. TP(The OG version) was pestered as he dribbled upcourt leaving the Spurs with less time to run plays...hence the sweep. But Tim, was a 1-man gang but still out-gunned.

[BlackSilver]

Danny Ferry = Matt Bonner