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Just cause our team sucks means we can't talk basketball? Can Kori or timvp close this site down already cause Spurs fans can't talk basketball if our team sucks.
I LOVE IT! Spurs fans figuring out whos the real MVP on the Lakers squad cuz thier team is crap. Kobe or Pau...i dont give a ...just as long as we keep winning. buhahaha.
Carry on...this is amusing.
Just cause our team sucks means we can't talk basketball? Can Kori or timvp close this site down already cause Spurs fans can't talk basketball if our team sucks.
Ill assume you didnt read the "Carry on" part of my post.
I'll assume that was sarcasm and leave it at that, Kobe fan.Ill assume you didnt read the "Carry on" part of my post.
no sarcasm here. Go ahead and talk about how crappy Kobe is while your team continues to be crap. All good with me.
I'll even help you. I say we TRADE KOBE! Lets trade Kobe for Manu...nah..you guys dont want a ball hog like Kobe on your team.
Nah. Trade Kobe to the Knicks or something. He might average 35 points again and get all of you on his bandwagon.
You're right...He should so he can get the Knicks to the playoffs.
Fair enough on the first point. But if that's how you view it, you shouldn't compare players on different teams period. Because obviously a guy on a more balanced team will likely not have a higher WS than a guy who basically does everything for his team, like guys like LeBron, Wade, Chris Paul.
Back to Kobe's WS though for a second. In the playoffs, Kobe had a higher WS than Pau. So, fair to say when it really mattered in the playoffs and in the NBA Finals, Kobe was more valuable. Would you agree with that?
0-12 in the playoffs without Kobe.
I'd say that's accurate..Kobe has had unbelievable playoff runs these last 2 years..
This thread is simply to point out Gasol's value and to get a discussion as to why he has been more valuable than Kobe in this current regular season..Kobe's shot selection? injuries?..
I would agree with that. But a sample size of 82 games is more telling than 23 games or something. And as of this season, Kobe played 51 games and had a 7.3 WS, but Gasol only played 36 games and already has a 6.2 WS, showing that last season wasn't a fluke. We can wait after this year's playoffs to see whether your statement that Kobe is more valuable in the playoffs whether it was a fluke or not. Because while Gasol was fighting the talented bigs in Orlando, Rockets, Nuggets, Jazz, none of them have a good SG to challenge Kobe on a nightly basis.
I would disagree that comparing players on different teams with similar record is incorrect. Because the record of the teams are similar, we can gauge through win shares, to see which player is more valuable to their team, as is the premise of this thread.
You guys are funny ... personally I dont care who is more valuable ... I watch EVERY Laker game so I already know ...
Does Kobe force or take some shots I wish he wouldn't? ABSOFUKINLUTELY!!!
Does Pau sometimes go up like a softass when he should dunk the freakin' ball YEAH!! (even my WIFE calls him a PUSSY!!!)
But when he plays like he has the past 3 games assertive and confident ...then I can hear the arguments he is the most skilled big man or as equally as valuable as Kobe etc.
I just dont see it enough. You can blame Kobe for some of that but I have seen that in LA and Memphis ...
Pau is a great player but not HOF'er IMHO as of yet ...Kobe is and is the MVP of our team ...
But to me the "key" or the X-factor is Lamar ...
Even as good as Pau is NO WAY we win the le last year or these last 3 games without Lamar stepping up. When he plays well we can win with Pau vacillating between the "the Spainard" and "Gasoft"
He hasn't been. And it's not close. Anybody saying otherwise doesn't properly understand basketball or is trolling.
You're en led to your opinion but that doesn't make it any less dumb.
Last edited by Ode to Triple Ocho; 02-11-2010 at 02:22 AM.
Touchee! Someone gets it.
I don't think it's comparable. A player that is relied on more will almost always have a higher WS than a comparably talented player who has more help and better talent around him who share the burden of winning.
For example, with your logic, I could argue that in their primes, Kevin Garnett was a better player than Tim Duncan because when the two of them actually played on teams with similar records, KG's WS was much, much higher than Tim Duncan's (2003-04). Or I could argue that Dirk was better than Tim Duncan as early as the 2005-06 season when Tim was still in his prime because Dirk had a much higher WS than Duncan that season.
But I don't necessarily think that way in either case. It's that Tim had better teammates who he unselfishly allowed to share in helping the team win, whereas both KG and Dirk had to carry their teams more in each of those seasons. Now, if you're prepared to agree that KG was better than Tim in their primes because when they both had great teams, KG's win share was greater and that Dirk was already better than Tim still in his prime back in 2005-06 because Dirk's win share was greater (much greater btw), then I guess you could use that aforementioned logic.
Me personally, I think a great player on a team with other great players simply won't have a higher WS than great players on teams that ask them to do everything. LeBron will always have one of the highest WS as long as he is asked to be a 30/7/7 type of guy for his team, while a guy like Kobe on a team with another great player in Gasol and a few other guys that can also share the burden of winning won't have as high a WS total.
but but but...
You brought up last years regular season WS stat to bash Kobe. Jam shows you that it was just the opposite scenario during the playoffs. Slam dunk.
ohhhh ohhhh ohhhh... now the WS stat isnt so valuable and maybe even a fluke since it doesnt support your obsession!
Is this now where you switch from statboy to the "I see the games with my eyes" so I know Kobe sucks?
Good, you just answered why LeBron is more valuable than Kobe and why Kobe is a ballhog who takes too many shots for the good of his team. You also answered why when you have better teammates, you don't need to do too much, which was why the player who is more valuable to his team, wins the MVP. Again, this thread premises on more valuable, not the best, so take it for its worth. I am not arguing who the better player is. I am arguing who the more valuable player is. There is no doubt that in 2004, Garnett was more valuable to the Wolves than Duncan is to the Spurs, because he did everything while Dirk was more valuable because he was needed more. I have no problem with that.
See above, crybaby Laker fan. Oh, and read the explanations. You get win shares for putting up better stats than your counterpart and by winning. How difficult was it for Kobe to outproduce J.R Smith, Shane Battier, Courtney Lee and Ronnie Brewer in the playoffs?but but but...
You brought up last years regular season WS stat to bash Kobe. Jam shows you that it was just the opposite scenario during the playoffs. Slam dunk.
ohhhh ohhhh ohhhh... now the WS stat isnt so valuable and maybe even a fluke since it doesnt support your obsession!
Is this now where you switch from statboy to the "I see the games with my eyes" so I know Kobe sucks?
LeBron more valuable in order for his team to win? Sure. Actually, absolutely. I think most people, even Laker fans, would agree with that.
I just got the feeling that you were suggesting that being more "valuable" equated to being "better." If that's not the case, then that's my bad. That's the direction it seemed you were taking it.
Gasol is definitely valuable to the Lakers in order for them to be elite. The Lakers from 2004 to 2007 proved as much, that Kobe needed help in the front court to bring the Lakers back to a championship level.
But, I don't think there's any question who is the Lakers' best player. And, when it counts, in the playoffs, Kobe is the most valuable player for the Lakers chances to win.
edit: for the record, I still don't look at WS as that determinative in terms of showing value. I think the DWS are skewed because they don't really accurately gauge defense. And, bigs have an advantage against perimeter players in win shares because stats used to gauge WS favor big men. For example, defensively bigs will almost always have an advantage in rebounding rate and they have another stat in blocks they should excel at over a perimeter player while perimeter players only have steals to their advantage over bigs. Additionally, offensively, bigs will generally have better FG%, true shooting, and efficiency because they mostly shoot around the rim. So, I don't think it's entirely an accurate gauge. Last year, Paul had more WS but Kobe had a higher PER, which is also often used to gauge how good a player is.
Last edited by JamStone; 02-11-2010 at 02:52 AM.
Gasol's the best big man in the league today.
Yup we should trade Kobe for a bag of chips while he's still worth something.(sarcasm)
I doubt you would inherent the dominant center persona.
over 82 games kobeless lakers win less games than pauless lakers.
this is just a 3 game sample against an equally injured blazers team, a ty spurs team.... and well the Jazz... this was a super impressive win.
It's funny how sensitive Laker Fan is about his team. They don't even like compliments.
Pau Gasol is a great player
you're not the right person to use this term though.
Except he isn't when he plays against a tough defensive front line in a playoff atmosphere.
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