If the spurs started recruiting from Mensa would that be better?
Actually.. I think your onto something here.
I could defenitely see this starting a trend among the nba and pretty soon we'd be watching former math wizzes turned nba basketball players calculating passing angles and banking shots from 30+ feet with 100% accuracy.
Instead of judging athletic prowess at the combine they would instead run IQ tests instead and teams would invite athletes to take part in Jeapordy trials.
Ok maybe I'm exaggerating here.. but the point is valid.
I don't get this mentality at this point. Is this team in a position to not take a risk? Not if they have aspiration of winning another championship in the Duncan-era, they're not. The Spurs, talent-wise and defensively, should instantly improve from this trade. Do they lose some "corporate knowledge"? Yeah, but Bonner/Finley are both seeing limited minutes currently and there's a good chance at least Finley is gone after this season anyway.
The potential reward here far outweighs the risk. Can this even be considered a risk when this team as presently cons uted clearly isn't going anywhere and they're getting the two best talents in the trade? At worst, this trade doesn't make the Spurs contenders again either this year or next. But guess what? They're already not contenders; at least this trade gives them a chance to be contenders again.
As for Ginobili, he almost sounds ready to move on. If he wants to stay, then hopefully Pop/Buford can talk Holt into paying to re-sign Ginobili and signing Splitter, by telling him that they'll just let Jefferson's contract expire and he can pocket the savings. It's easy for me to say because it's not my money, but it's only for a year he'd have to pay for this bloated payroll and it's not that much money, relative to NBA terms, that the Spurs are adding. If Holt wants to win one for the thumb for Duncan, this is probably the Spurs best (realistic) chance left.
Chicago will not want a mid 20 first round draft pick in 2010. (maybe 2011 or later). They are trying to free up money and would not want to pay the guaranteed money of a late first rounder.
Last edited by dbestpro; 02-11-2010 at 07:49 PM.
Doing this trade does not amount to taking a risk. Do you honestly believe that Salmons and Ty Thomas are the missing pieces to vault the Spurs into championship contention? I think that sentiment is just foolhardy. Why add more money on the books (salmons) past this season for something that will net you less then a championship. Its not that this trade wouldn't make us any better, it would, it just won't make us good enough to realistically compete for a ship'.
Id much rather keep our draft picks (including Splitter) to help rebuild the team in the future. The only trades I would be willing to make is one that would truly and instantly put us in a position to win the championship or one that brings us a great young talent (not TT; I simply don't think he will ever reach his supposed potential) for the future. Such a trade is not available at this time.
I heard they were trying to package Hinrich with Ty Thomas, anyone else hear this?
lol at them losing "corporate knowledge"; Bonner and Finley aren't good enough to utilize it and Mason's never had it.
I appreciate when someone like TD 21 does the heavy lifting or, at the very least, prevents me from re-stating what I've done ad nauseum, so I'll just give a big ol'.
But as for Manu, for the first time, and I've dismissed this whenever the suggestion was made prior, my gut's telling me he's gone. The combination of his declining athleticism, his continued talk of the contract situation and the current state of the team, it just doesn't leave a cir stance that leaves me brimming with optimism (the thought of him being traded at the deadline doesn't even sound all that crazy anymore).
It would hurt like to see him go, but. . . sadly, I've almost conditioned myself to expect it. . .
Yeah, and I'd be totally happy keeping the geriatric roster that the Spurs have now. They could probably win four more les with that roster.
I don't see either getting to the promise land.Yeah, and I'd be totally happy keeping the geriatric roster that the Spurs have now. They could probably win four more les with that roster.
You think Jefferson or Dice know what they're doing in our system yet? Add more new pieces, and watch them flail around too. Especially someone like Tyrus Thomas. Or are you suggesting that bringing in a bunch of new players at the midway point of the season is going to be a smooth transition? Now, that's a joke.lol at them losing "corporate knowledge"; Bonner and Finley aren't good enough to utilize it and Mason's never had it.
I appreciate when someone like TD 21 does the heavy lifting or, at the very least, prevents me from re-stating what I've done ad nauseum, so I'll just give a big ol'
But as for Manu, for the first time, and I've dismissed this whenever the suggestion was made prior, my gut's telling me he's gone. The combination of his declining athleticism, his continued talk of the contract situation and the current state of the team, it just doesn't leave a cir stance that leaves me brimming with optimism (the thought of him being traded at the deadline doesn't even sound all that crazy anymore).
It would hurt like to see him go, but. . . sadly, I've almost conditioned myself to expect it. . .
If you're trying to get there this year or next, of course not. A trade if this type is not to win a le, it'll be to help rebuild the talent level on the roster.
The RJ trade and the other offseason free agent acquisitions, as bold as they were, have been a big failure. I applaud the Spurs for trying, but it hasn't worked. Blair has been the lone bright spot, and he came via the draft.
The FO had planned for an expected 2 year window of contention. That's now out the door because of those failed acquisitions. Now, the FO is in panic mode having to right the ship. However, at this point, is cannot be righted.
Want more evidence? A significant member of the championship core is already halfway out the door. Ginobili is as good as gone this summer. We all know it. There wont be another one like him coming anytime soon. I guess that will shock everyone into realizing this thing is really heading in South direction.
Whether any fan or Spurs official chooses to acknowledge it pubically, the Spurs championship run has effectively ended. Now the FO is forced to think about the future. That means rebuild. To stave off total perennial suckage, the Spurs need to invest in short-term, low-risk, young, affordable talent and make intelligent decisions in the draft. Players with energy, youth and athleticism that are hungry and can play every game are now the order of the day. Why? Because almost every contender in a stacked Western Conference has rosters that are virtually comprised of players of the same ilk.
The Spurs are no longer beating the youngsters. The youngsters are beating the Spurs. Look at the losses the Spurs have stockpiled this year. Swept by Portland. Swept by Denver. Swept by Utah. The days of adding older veterans to supplement a young Big Three are over. The Big Three, as a core, are now suffering from excessive mileage, wear and tear, age, and injury.
If you want to stay mediocre, continue to try and patch holes on a sinking ship. On the other hand, the sooner the FO and all us fans realize that its time to build a new ship, the sooner the renewal process can begin.
I agree with you. But isn't the Ty Thomas deal patching holes as you say?
I agree the window has closed but rolling the dice on some underutilized malcontents like Randolph and Thomas hardly seems like the first pieces of a new foundation. We need to get draft picks not other people's problems.
They're going nowhere fast, as it is. At least with the addition of upgraded talent you leave open the possibility of a decent, respectable run; this team needs some fresh air in the locker room and an insurance poilcy for RJ. This could conceivably do both.
Plus, going ahead and getting Thomas and Salmons ingrained this year, allows them to build some of that corporate knowledge for next year. I'm not making light of the need for corporate knowledge or an intangible this team no doubt lacks, I'm just not going to hold off making a good basketball decision because of the exploits of Bonner, Fin or Mason. (Thomas-Salmons is a damn good trade for the Spurs if all it costs is those three; a future first-rounder isn't much of a sticking point, either. IMO.)
Replacing RJ with Maggette is an upgrade in it of itself. Throw in Randolph, who's got the potential to be a franchise-level player, and it's a no-brainer for the Spurs.
Tyrus isn't a perfect solution and it's perfectly understandable to have reservations about his personality, but the rewards far outweigh the risk.
He's actually about as good an option as there is for their particular front court, because he provides a rim deterrent that can play out on the floor (something that could really compliment Tim at this stage). He's versatile, energetic, athletic and proven that he could come through under playoff pressure, which isn't something you're going to find in a first-round pick.
A battery of he and Blair would be a potential huge boost to this team, and be an ideal compliment to the aging Tim and 'Dyess.
BlackJack,
My point is that bringing in any new bunch of players is basically starting over and it will take time. And if we're starting over, then what is the best way to move forward? I think Bonner and Finley are stiffs but I admit that it took them 1-2 years to grasp some sense of where they were supposed to be on the court. Again, they're mediocre players but I don't see a way around new players having to go through the same tedious time and work of learning how to play here.
My preference is for a new approach and system next year so that this tedious learning curve can be shortened and some sort of system is in place that isn't trying to replicate the glory days of the Big 3. I respect Pop but I think next year he should stay in the FO and spend time in Europe looking for new European players and grape varietals. A new coach should work with our new players. My hunch is that Avery has already been picked to succeed Pop so I'd prefer to just get along with this process.
I still think getting players of good work ethic is important, I just don't want them to have to be one step from retirement when they arrive.
Thomas and Salmons are an upgrade, and if that's the best we can get for our trash, then so be it. But if we can somehow get draft picks for our trash, then I would prefer that route.
Not necessarily. The main thing is the kid has tools this team needs. The ability to defend, rebound, & block shots.
If he pans out, great - and TT then becomes a building block for a franchise that has few. If not, the Spurs are not obligated to keep him past next year. He'll become a tradeable asset. That's the beauty of this trade.
We already know that what the Spurs have isn't good enough to win. The time has come to take calculated risks to significantly improve the roster talent for the long haul.
Last edited by SenorSpur; 02-11-2010 at 10:10 PM.
Allow me to make light of Pop's favorite term.
I know what Pop means by the term. Familiarity with the system, team culture, the league, etc. It's just a bull corporate "buzz word" that sounds catchy. The bottom line, a player can't beat his opponent off the dribble, defend his position or block a shot simply with corporate knowledge. It takes ability too. The bottom line is corporate knowledge without tangible skill and measurable ability, is meanginless.
I don't disagree with the time needed to acclimate and thrive in the Spurs' system. But I'm working under the premise that they're not going anywhere this year and finishing out with what they have would be nothing more than wasting precious time; if you can get good value on the dollar with your expirings now, you go ahead and do it (there's no harm in building an understanding and some chemistry before the start of next year).
Personally, I was hoping a for more up-tempo offense going into this year, one that would play out of it's defense and find ways to get easy, early offense; it was the only way I saw RJ being a net positive and the best way, in my view, to move forward with Tim. (let him go the way of Kareem)My preference is for a new approach and system next year so that this tedious learning curve can be shortened and some sort of system is in place that isn't trying to replicate the glory days of the Big 3. I respect Pop but I think next year he should stay in the FO and spend time in Europe looking for new European players and grape varietals. A new coach should work with our new players. My hunch is that Avery has already been picked to succeed Pop so I'd prefer to just get along with this process.
But Tony came into the year hobbled and fatigued and, really, he just doesn't excel in igniting the break in a team concept (great on his own but not so much in advancing the ball or making the right play, at-the-right-time, with the right spacing). This team's actually pretty poor overall on the break; it definitely doesn't look like something that's emphasized properly in practice, which is perplexing given the incessant imploring from Pop to push the ball. But I digress. . .
But as it pertains to Thomas and Salmons, they're versatile players that are perfectly capable of helping the Spurs in whichever way they choose to go. Let's not forget that both of these guys have been on the Spurs radar for a while now and that the Spurs have made more than one attempt to acquire them in the past (even if not together). They know what type of players they are and, generally, what they're made of, so I see no reason why their skill sets couldn't succeed with this team moving forward.
I'm a big intangible guy and it's been one of my biggest points of contention with this team. This team looks like the Spurs, but there's not much in the way they're playing that suggests these are in fact "The Spurs".I still think getting players of good work ethic is important, I just don't want them to have to be one step from retirement when they arrive.
Championship teams, by in large, typically trend to be older. It takes an intelligence, belief and battle-hardened players, to survive the crucible that is the NBA Playoffs. And, as Pop always used to say: "When we win we're experienced and when we lose we're old as dirt." It's a fine line and it's often the cause for a quick and sudden decline if not managed properly.
This team has lost a lot of it's glue and championship soul with the departure of their older supporting cast, and it's not something you can just replace overnight.
But there are roles within a team and aspects that each individual needs to bring individually for a group to have the ultimate success. There's room for the savvy, cagey vet, as well as the young, energetic and mistake-prone (to a degree). If your youth is providing enregy, effort and hustle, a mistake here or there isn't going to kill you. Should players that provide that be someone like Thomas or Blair (guys who aren't real decision-makers or creating for others), there's no reason to think they couldn't play a role in being part of that new supporting cast; Blair's work-ethic has been on point ever since arriving and, from just about all I've heard, Thomas is a basketball junky who's not afraid to put the time in (the maturity and at ude has been questioned, but he's also been in a less-than-ideal setting for him to find his way; he's a 23 year-old that could definitely use some consistency from his coach and team)
I just don't see any feasible ways in which to get better help for the remainder of Tim's window; their expirings aren't going to bring back lottery picks and short of trading Tony, which I suppose is plausible, moves like Thomas-Salmons and Maggette-Randolph are the ways I'd be looking to go.Thomas and Salmons are an upgrade, and if that's the best we can get for our trash, then so be it. But if we can somehow get draft picks for our trash, then I would prefer that route.
Just one windbag's opinion, though. . .
i would say that there is zero chance we get picks for our garbage. usually useful expirings can at best net more expirings and a late 1st and i cant see that happening for our guys. i cant think of one team in the league that would offer picks for any combination of bonner/mason/finley/mahinmi unless we were eating a less useful player on a worse contract, which kind of defeats the purpose.
i will trade our trash plus a late pick for useful pieces on reasonable contracts over our trash for worse pieces on bad contracts plus a late pick.
I'm firmly in the Randolph camp. He has a little more to his game than Ty Thomas than just pure athleticism. The 2011 pick is on the table for me as long as there is decent protection, Randolph is better than who we could get at 15 in that draft. Also, given the history of big time free agents coming to SA, the 2011 cap space we're on target to have is more valuable to other teams than to us.
Say the discussed deal for Randolph and Maggette for RJ(Or some variation with another team in a 3 way) occurs, If we traded a protected 2011 pick, A future front of
Splitter/Blair
Randolph/Blair
Is decent enough. Good Defensively, Rebounding wise and can handle most types of matchups, and you can go big with Randolph at SF. In my semi realistic trade, We give the 2011 pick to the Warriors, they get Ty Thomas from Chicago and We get Biedrins to, but if that's not on, we could try to get Solomon Alabi or Parakhouski to do that role as the big true Centre.(If We got Biedrins, take a SF, that's where value is at 20).
If We're going the rebuild route, I'd even try to flip Manu for Iggy or KMart (Defense and playmaking are advantages in Iggy's favour, KMart is a better shooter and cheaper) as efficient scoring Wings who are available and Manu would quite possibly do it. Then Wait for Parker to get his groove back.(No point trading him low).
Biedrins/Splitter/McDyess
Duncan/Blair/Randolph
Maggette/Randolph/(2010 Pick)
(Martin or Iggy)/Hill/Hairston
Parker/Hill
That team has plenty of youngish talent so we don't need really need a 2011 pick, If we just let the expirings expire it's about 73 million for next year, and the only real need is either a pure shooter(Could re up Mason) or a Defender against big 2's. If you did that now, they'd have 30 games to gel for this playoffs and play a series together, then could get a year together to make a run for the 11 le. I think that that's a young team that could contend now, and would even be mildly frisky without Duncan
Biedrins/Splitter
Randolph/Blair
Maggette/Pick
Iggy/Hill/Hairston
Parker/Hill
Jeff McDonald: I know the Spurs were sniffing around Ty Thomas ... but don't know if they can really offer a better deal than CharlotteJeff McDonald: All the Spurs can really offer a team are expiring contracts (ie cap relief next year)Jeff McDonald: The problem with the Spurs is, there really aren't any deals out there that will drastically improve your team. And if you are going to take on MORE long-term contracts, and basically kill your payroll the next two seasons, you better be sure.
I'd like to think a trade will help this team this season. Not gonna happen.
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