And yet I would still kick the living crap out of all those academic ap ude tests...
You act like Faith is a societal crutch...
I guess those same 'secularist' countries are so superior to the U.S. when it comes to making a difference... No nation matches the U.S. when it comes to charitable giving... The U.S. (thus far) has donated more than 4 times the amount of aid than the entire European continent to the Haiti relief effort. The same could be said during the tsunamis from a couple of years ago... I certainly don't remember the Europeans sending much aid to New Orleans after Katrina...
Also, if the brightest students weren't from the U.S. other countries would have far more advanced technologies than we do... Fact is, no one rivals the technologies available to our armed forces. That's not from foreign development.
The problem in this nation is that many parents just don't give a darn about their children's education. That has nothing to do with whether or not this nation believes in GOD.
Awwww... did I strike a nerve?
I guess the news of these discoveries popped into my brain while I was sleeping....
Fact of the matter Blake is that I do my own thinking... I don't blindly accept everything that is published. Do so at your own peril Mr. "we're changing the theories of decay - [no big deal]"....
Hey... we're the perfect Napoleon bar...In most civilized countries, not so much compared to the US.
Photo: Evolution Less Accepted in U.S. Than Other Western Countries, Study Finds (2006)
I'm good at googling. Just ask pheno.
As I explained to DR... this breakdown, and any inference to our progress as a nation is an ad hominem reach.
Seeing as youre keen to point out ad hominem attacks, I am sure you can find fault in this above statement.
Youre, by far, the exception to the rule. Americans, by and large, are ignorant.
Not a crutch at all, just completely irrelevant to just about everything tangible.You act like Faith is a societal crutch...
So, since we are the richest nation in the world and this tragedy happened in our "sphere of influence", this proves....what, exactly?I guess those same 'secularist' countries are so superior to the U.S. when it comes to making a difference... No nation matches the U.S. when it comes to charitable giving... The U.S. (thus far) has donated more than 4 times the amount of aid than the entire European continent to the Haiti relief effort. The same could be said during the tsunamis from a couple of years ago... I certainly don't remember the Europeans sending much aid to New Orleans after Katrina...
Being rich doesnt buy class. Ask any blue-blood that. America is a walking, talking example of being rich doesnt buy an education...it merely hides your lack of it.
Seeing as you can add the military spending of the entire world and it still wouldnt equal that of the US, this isnt really saying much.Also, if the brightest students weren't from the U.S. other countries would have far more advanced technologies than we do... Fact is, no one rivals the technologies available to our armed forces. That's not from foreign development.
As Americans, yes, our warfare technology supersedes everyone else. So we're better at killing other humans en masse with less than educated soldiers. Whoopety-doo.
Moreover, as an American, I dont take great pride in our military spending. I can think of far better things to do with our money than foreign wars, death and occupation, but thats just me.
Not going to argue. But, IMO, the reason American parents dont care is because they dont have to. America, up until some short time ago, never competed with anyone for anything (ultimately speaking).The problem in this nation is that many parents just don't give a darn about their children's education. That has nothing to do with whether or not this nation believes in GOD.
Now that we are in direct compe ion with growing nations (China, India, the EU), its clear we're not equipped to do so in any tangible area besides our inherent advantage of geography, legacy and infrastructure.
Oh, and our military. Now that I think about it, America's military is a direct compensation for our lack of education. Without a "big stick", the other monkeys would outsmart us, they know it, we know it and more importantly our government knows it.
Thus, our military. Little reminders to the rest of the world that we can, still and will you up.
As a nation, IMO, we dont have time to argue this mundane bull . The world is quite literally, passing us by in terms of applicable science education and our dumbasses squabble over Bible accuracy and science demonism.
Again, amusing to say the least. Like Nero playing the fiddle as Rome burned.
Last edited by DarkReign; 02-17-2010 at 03:15 PM.
It would be.
But then you could use comparison data of relevant knowledge of math and science of every listed country and compare.
Correlation certainly wouldnt indicate causation, and I am not arguing that at all, but it would certainly amuse, wouldnt it?
The smartest nations, I am sure, treat evolution as science.
The dumbest by any measure, do not teach evolution at all, or question its merits.
Does it make the faithful proud that the USA is grouped in with theocracies, monarchies and dictatorships when the question of education is asked?
I cant see how it does. Unless holding the country back for the sake of supers ion is a goal.
That was too much reading. Well not really but I know it was arguing against me so that is what made it too much. Here is my rebuttal. A pie chart that supports my theories.
Thanks for pointing out this is not an American-only issue, contrary to your (and others') arguments.
Kinda makes you wonder: why do literally hundreds of millions of people in the universe's most civilized human countries choose to completely ignore and even deny a "fact", as some call it?
DarkReign, since these and other countries "moved past this 20 years ago" since it is a 'fact', why are there still considerable amounts of the populations that are unsure? And why are there still considerable amounts that completely deny it?
Last edited by z0sa; 02-17-2010 at 03:53 PM.
Fair enough...
The Tsunamis occurred in our sphere of influence...??? I'm sure the Chinese cooperated there.... yeah.
While I agree with your statement... it's a tangential one...
America's wealth was accrued because we were blessed as a nation. Moreso after slavery was abolished.
Another misplaced assumption. America values its "way of life" and feels compeled to defend herself.
I'm simply stating that the technologies that U.S. military possesses far out-class anything available in the public sector. Development of advanced technologies is the quintessential indicator of a nation's place amongst its peers when it comes to scientific progress. OBVIOUSLY, I wish those technologies were more frequently employed towards the advancement of our quality of life instead of just defense. But that should go without saying... It's sad that you actually made me point that out, as if I find some masochistic joy in the death of those who die at the hands of our country's war machine.
There are many reasons why american students lag behind the rest of the 'first world' academically. Belief in GOD is not even remotely chief among those reasons...
That's a way of seeing things... probably one that does factor into the big picture...
Ultimately however, America wields that 'big stick' because we've learned from history and seen that nations who 'banished' GOD from their societies, and persecuted the church, became dictatorships -bent on power and destruction.
See Nazi Germany, Imperialistic Japan, the rise of power by Stalin in Communist Russia [later Soviet Union], the rise of power by Mao Tao in Communist China... etc... etc...
I hope your memory hasn't been that short...
Our western freedoms are a direct result from having established a system of government which values the 'free-will' that GOD Himself gave us. From valuing life. That we take those freedoms for granted and have become overwhelmed with a sense of en lement is another story altogether (one that plays more into our 'bad' education than any other reason - our students simply don't care). Conceptually however, our view of GOD and His role in our lives and government are radically different from the Islamic Theocracies you compare us to... those theocracies are set-up to behave more like the former set of secularist dictatorships I mentioned in the previous list...
The sad part is that Americans such as yourself devalue the importance of having lived under a government who's morality was largely based on biblical principles... now that this is falling apart... well, you do the math...
Last edited by Phenomanul; 02-17-2010 at 05:30 PM.
Come to think of it... It's rather presumptuous to suggest that belief in evolution is what determines whether a nation is progressive or not. Who made that belief the ultimate criteria?
dinosuars are said to have died out about 65 million years ago.
This dinosaur was said to have lived 70 million years ago.
You obviously have problems with simple math and fail at using google. Got it.
"established" viewpoints change all the time.The existence of soft tissues and proteins within bones of anything considered older than 50,000 years isn't convenient to the "established" viewpoint. It is amazing for that very reason!
You do realize how long a span 70 million years covers? Recorded earth history doesn't even go back an iota's measure of that span... 70,000,000 years (25,578,000,000 days)... You're claiming to tell me that the effects of entropy on a system far removed from absolute zero temperatures can be glossed over simply by stating that [science] is "changing the theories of decay"... You do realize that this is why fossilization occurs in the first place, right? Because most organic bonds are covalent and can't overcome extended periods of time without complete degradation... that's why our own proteins and genetic compounds are constantly being replenished by our bodies, that's why our cells have limited life-spans... that's why even the highly stable cellulose polymers in most plants will petrify over time... That's why much of the degradative products from dead biomass was converted into petroleum over the course of the years (in the bowels of the earth)...
Who's being deceived here??
But hey... we'll wait to see what creative scheme your athiest buddies can come up with to keep that wool's cloth over your eyes... I'm sure you'll accept anything.
This is as big as the "Dead Sea Scrolls" was to addressing the naysayers accusations about the alleged fidelity loss that was accrued from years and years of biblical text propagation. The Dead Sea Scrolls (from 200 B.C.) read almost identically to texts written in 1000 A.D. (the oldest scripts from the Hebrew Canon in existence at the time the Dead Sea Scrolls were discovered).
You just haven't realized how big this discovery is yet...
but hey... we'll wait to see in what creative new ways you can call me "godless" and how I hang out with my atheist buddies.....and I'm sure you'll continue to accept anything the Old Testament tells you.
http://www.creation.or.kr/
Possibly the world's most prominent and sizable creationist association is based in Korea, founded by an award winning (in America from NASA) Korean scientist and industrialist.
This is nowhere near being an "American only" issue. Not only that, the hundreds of creationist scientists in the KACR and ICR are proof positive that there are extremely intelligent and successful creationists.
The concept still eludes you... Got it.
"When dinosaurs lived...."
Why does being called godless bother you so much?
Your disbelief is your religion. Don't live in denial about it.
Awwww.... no I'm just pointing out you're an idiot that would talk out of his ass most of the time instead of source his information.
If anyone accepts anything you say over anything that has actually been published, they do so at their own peril.
What I pointed out is that this a much bigger deal to Americans than it is to most everyone else in the world not named Turkey.
You're welcome.
simple math and the ability to google still elude you. Got it.
Why are you assuming I am a godless athiest? It's why anyone that listens to you does so at their own peril.Why does being called godless bother you so much?
Your disbelief is your religion. Don't live in denial about it.
3rd time, what is your theory on how we arrived and how have you validated that theory?
The graph does not portray "how much bigger a deal" the issue is. That's speculation, and only your opinion. That assertion is not represented by any information from the graph.
Secondly, many countries have a similar (and still considerable) amount of the population unsure compared with America. That's added the amount of those that completely deny it. Why? If it were somehow a clean cut fact in these countries but not here, like you argue, there would be little unsure population.
This is completely separate from the debate. Whether or not his theory is correct has nothing to do with evolution's validity.
On it's own, you are correct, the graph does not portray that.
It just helps to affirm that assertation that most of us except you understand to be true.
Name some countries with a similar amount of the population that flat out don't believe the theory of evolution.Secondly, many countries have a similar (and still considerable) amount of the population unsure compared with America. That's added the amount of those that completely deny it. Why? If it were somehow a clean cut fact in these countries but not here, like you argue, there would be little unsure population.
Are you pheno? If so, then you may answer the question.
If not, beat it.
....or feel free to say "hi, my name is z0sa, this is my theory...." in which you give your theory.
Nor anything like it.
According to the graph you posted, this assertation^ is also incorrect.It just helps to affirm that assertation that most of us except you understand to be true.
I've already deduced from the evidence that roughly one 3rd of the civilized world flat out denies evolution. Another 10-15% are unsure of this supposed 'fact.'Name some countries with a similar amount of the population that flat out don't believe the theory of evolution.
So roughly half of the civilized world does not consider evolution a fact.
Find me one Western country whose population shows such a strong disbelief for any other mainstream, scientifically acceptable and peer reviewed fact.
The fact that you shield your inability to think for yourself in the masses is not something you should be gloating about.
I speak out of my own volition. It's true... and I'm proud of it.
Speaking out of my arse however, as you and others constantly accuse me of, would suggest I was lying... I'm not... the last time someone accused me of 'speaking out of my arse' all he had to do was google to verify that what I was stating was true.
I'm simply explaining my viewpoint the way it makes sense to me. That you or others can't handle that... that is your problem. That you can't handle the fact that I'm well versed in the technical nuances of most of our advanced fields... that is your insecurity. That you can't accept my objections... that is just plain stubborness [each to his viewpoint].... but ultimately you're en led to believe whatever you want. (now hurry, twist those phrases around on me... you know you want to).
What you don't understand is that evidence and data don't come with a tag stating what the possible inferences and conclusions from that data are. Our presupposed viewpoints cause us to interpret it differently. You seek for ways in which new data can throw GOD out the door. I simply see that it reflects His truths... In this case you're willing to compromise your understanding of chemical degradation and entropy so that you can look the other way when someone questions whether or not the notion that these creatures lived millions of years ago is a valid one. The same goes for the formation of stalac es and stalagmites in suburban basements (a mouse classic) as a 'slap in the face' to the notion that millions of years are required to form the structures...
So... we have proof that things can fossilize within 30-50 years... and we have evidence that fossilized bones purported to be over 70 million years old still have proteins and soft tissues inside... could it be that those bones are not as old as asserted. Unmistakably, the specimen this bone was taken from was a Tyrannosaurus rex (one of the most recognizable in the world)... there's no debate there. So something has to give.
I place my bets on the nature of entropic forces.
Last edited by Phenomanul; 02-17-2010 at 04:53 PM.
I just answered.
What are you going to do about it?
That's separate from the discussion we're having. It's the basis for an ad hominem attack since you dislike him.....or feel free to say "hi, my name is z0sa, this is my theory...." in which you give your theory.
No matter how viciously you could tear down his theories, it would still have nothing to do with evolution.
NO what I got was that you're still eluding the obvious question surrounding that find. Don't be so disingenuous....
I don't know... maybe your predisposition to go around calling others idiots and asses... instead of addressing the questions at hand. Then again I'm about to call you an ant... (keep reading to the next post)
Last edited by Phenomanul; 02-17-2010 at 05:00 PM.
Wishful thinking z0sa...
All Blake can do is go look in his talkorigins bible to see if they've developed counterpoint to the critique of these atheistically driven scientific claims... since the 70 million year old T-rex (among other such finds) or the dead artic forest aren't yet included in his index he has nothing to say... Other than stating the "theories of decay are changing" of course.... (he's probably out googling his comeback)
Debate with Blake is like talking to an ant... he can't comprehend my objections. All he can do is bite or sting me (curse me out, and call me names) because he doesn't understand me. Does that come across as pretentious?At this point I don't care.
Last edited by Phenomanul; 02-17-2010 at 04:57 PM.
I don't think he could tear your arguments down at all, at least not in any cohesive, sound manner. AFAIK, he still has yet to make such an argument.
It looks to me like he wants a clean break to a related but different discussion since it's obvious his "much bigger deal in America" position is ignorant at best.
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