One Simple Request

[LOL@MavsFan]

ds

[MrFundamental]

Wow . . .

I just read this whole thread trying to ascertain MrFundamental's (it's not TPark; too many links and stats) purpose or the basis of his logic, and I've come up empty; apparently practice carries a lot of weight for a team that doesn't do it during the season and playing players like Hairston (who outplayed Bogans for the job) and Mahinmi (who's now the only player other than Tim capable of bringing what he does defensively) as part of the supporting cast is throwing away the season (it's Chicken Little, even).

Other then preseason, when did Hairston outplay Bogans? On what do you base Mahinmi's defense, his size? And can you name any other team in the NBA with an above .500 record and current playoff spot that is looking to take a chance on what essentially amounts to 2 rookies?

Oh, and I especially like the part about adding two more players to the mix is something that's going to be detrimental to the team. I guess the thinking is, why risk disrupting inconsistency by throwing in another variable and risking inconsistency? Well, no need to worry, 'cause Pop still hasn't settled on a rotation (nor does he seem close to doing so), the supporting cast is stale, borderline inept, and it all comes to a head with Bogans and his bountiful minutes -- playing a guy like Hairston in his stead would truly be paramount to tanking, wouldn't it?

So do you really think more inconsistency is better? Should they really start from the ground up in rotations? Considering the unknown is how well Hairston and Mahinmi would do, I would say yes, that is tantamount to tanking.

One more thing, they can't risk losing ground? Really? 'Cause what I've been witnessing is a whole bunch of fail with some personnel that's shown no sign of turning it around, so I can't see an argument (a valid one that comes from anyone who's actually watched all parties involved and possesses a decent basketball a en) that wins out on the merits of the players in question: The Spurs are heading to nowhere but an early-ouster or the lottery and playing guys who aren't getting it done, or likely to be here next year, over guys that possibly could, on both counts, makes absolutely zero sense.

Wait a sec, you say that they are heading for a first round loss or lottery, yet you disagree that they can't risk losing ground? What? Or have you given up and are content with the fact that the upside of this season is a first round loss? If so, I'd be more then happy to give major minutes to Ian, Hairston, Blair, and Hill. , then bench Bogans, Mason, Parker, Duncan, and play with an 8 man rotation that includes Jefferson (he's got to learn the damn system sometime), Dice, Bonner, and Ginobili. Let's prepare for next season, at which point hopefully Pops can expand his playbook and maybe the team will play like they should.

[MrFundamental]

You want to play Hairston/Mahinmi or D-League players when Spurs are trying to make the playoffs? Do you know what would happen if Pop did this and they fall to 9th or 10th place? Good God! Fans need to realize the grass is not always greener on the other side of the mountain. If Hairston or Mahinmi wants to play let them earn a spot by showing it in practice. Putting these two out there 'so we can see what they can do' is something no coach would do during a regular season game.

Seconded!

[ElNono]

And can you name any other team in the NBA with an above .500 record and current playoff spot that is looking to take a chance on what essentially amounts to 2 rookies?

Oklahoma City Thunder

Ibaka, Harden and Maynor (while he was there)...
Westbrook is also a sop re...

[ElNono]

Plenty of teams integrating rooks and sop res too...
Denver with Ty Lawson, Cleveland with JJ Hicks...

The thing is, playoffs teams rarely get good draft picks (other than via trade), that's why you don't see more of that.

[MrFundamental]

Oklahoma City Thunder

Ibaka, Harden and Maynor (while he was there)...
Westbrook is also a sop re...

They've all played the whole year, little bit of a difference

[MrFundamental]

Plenty of teams integrating rooks and sop res too...
Denver with Ty Lawson, Cleveland with JJ Hicks...

The thing is, playoffs teams rarely get good draft picks (other than via trade), that's why you don't see more of that.

I meant after the All-Star break like people are saying the Spurs should do now (and considering they've played Blair and Hill, so I would have been wrong from the start). Apologies if I wasn't specific.

[ElNono]

Well, the request to play Hairston and Mahinmi isn't new. Guys like Blackjack or Harlem have been talking about it for a while now, not since the All Star break...

But even then, if what you're putting out there isn't getting it done, why not give them 10 minutes and see what you get?

[MrFundamental]

Well, the request to play Hairston and Mahinmi isn't new. Guys like Blackjack or Harlem have been talking about it for a while now, not since the All Star break...

But even then, if what you're putting out there isn't getting it done, why not give them 10 minutes and see what you get?

Because the unknown is what is going on behind the scenes. If they are woefully under-performing in practice, why throw them to the dogs in a real game? I agree Pops should have attempted to play them from the beginning, but I'm not privy to practice film or notes, so I can't say it's my place to second guess his decisions, unless something comes out to the contrary about their performance.

[ElNono]

Because the unknown is what is going on behind the scenes. If they are woefully under-performing in practice, why throw them to the dogs in a real game? I agree Pops should have attempted to play them from the beginning, but I'm not privy to practice film or notes, so I can't say it's my place to second guess his decisions, unless something comes out to the contrary about their performance.

So you don't know either... which basically means your opinion is as good as Black's or anybody else...

[MrFundamental]

So you don't know either... which basically means your opinion is as good as Black's or anybody else...

Congrats, you got to the bottom of opinions.

Now what makes you think they deserve to play? Just because some current players haven't been playing well? Why do they deserve to play by default?

[BillMc]

The Spurs are only 2.5 behind Dallas SW and 5 behind Denver in the West. Yeah, they're struggling, but not enough to start throwing D-leaguers in the mix; especially after everyone is calling for some consistency.

I agree. MrFundamental makes some very good points.

[ElNono]

Now what makes you think they deserve to play? Just because some current players haven't been playing well? Why do they deserve to play by default?

Why not? The current guys are not getting it done, and it's not just a single game or two. A guy like Bogans has been sucking for half a season now.
Defensively speaking, a guy like Bonner simply does not have the tools. This isn't news.

I defended playing Bogans when the season started because he was shooting lights out, but once that went off the window, the guy really can't give you anything else. And the reason the other guys should play is because those are the guys that the FO decided to keep and can give you a variant. Should the FO have decided to move them or trade them for other players, then we would be advocating for playing those other guys.

Like Harlem said, this is not about saviors. It could very well be that neither Mahinmi or Hairston have much to give, if anything at all. But when the guys that are getting the minutes are consistently not giving you anything either, there's no reason not to hand out 10 minutes and see what you have.
I mean, it's not like Pop didn't do it already with Finley earlier in the season.

[MrFundamental]

Why not? The current guys are not getting it done, and it's not just a single game or two. A guy like Bogans has been sucking for half a season now.

I agree, Bogans' minutes shouldn't break 20 let alone the 35+ he just had.

Defensively speaking, a guy like Bonner simply does not have the tools. This isn't news.

True, but that's when the other 4 need to step it up. As Pops has said, it's called "team defense" for a reason.

And the reason the other guys should play is because those are the guys that the FO decided to keep and can give you a variant. Should the FO have decided to move them or trade them for other players, then we would be advocating for playing those other guys.

That's the thing, they may have had to keep them as no one else wanted them. Perhaps they tried to move Ian and had no takers, and it seems they only called up Hairston because Tony is injured.

Like Harlem said, this is not about saviors. It could very well be that neither Mahinmi or Hairston have much to give, if anything at all. But when the guys that are getting the minutes are consistently not giving you anything either, there's no reason not to hand out 10 minutes and see what you have.
I mean, it's not like Pop didn't do it already with Finley earlier in the season.

And as I see it, that should have been done earlier in the season, I can't see a winning team attempting to do that now. I agree Bogans should be limited, but I think the rotations should be limited to 8 players (possibly 9): Hill, Parker, Duncan, Dice, Blair, Bonner, Jefferson, Ginobili, and a combination of minor minutes for Fin, Mase, or Bogans.

[OldSilentHill]

This is the best, down to earth, observation I've seen on this board by a long time Spurs fan. As much as other fans complain about the other guys, in my mind the Big 3 are the ones who aren't getting it done, especially at the ends of games. Manu played huge in the fourth but he also turned the ball over three different times if memory serves me correctly.

I'd also say that as big as Manu is for the Spurs, Tony's impact is bigger.

Yes, bec when Tony does nothing he brings his intangibles to the floor.

Oh, wait...


Maybe you were talking about a negative impact...

[ElNono]

True, but that's when the other 4 need to step it up. As Pops has said, it's called "team defense" for a reason.

Tim Duncan already needs help on defense.
Manu Ginobili already needs help on defense.
Tony Parker, hobbled, needs help on defense.

If, on top of that, you keep on adding role players that do not play defense, then you're compounding the problem, not solving it. Matt Bonner has been with the team for 4 seasons. He has no excuse for not knowing the system, or missing defensive rotations. And that's besides the fact that even when he does get it right, he simply does not have the tools to actually stop people.
When the argument is that your starters have been selected to set the defensive tone (Pop said it, not me), then it makes zero to put that guy in that position.

That's the thing, they may have had to keep them as no one else wanted them. Perhaps they tried to move Ian and had no takers, and it seems they only called up Hairston because Tony is injured.

Why they kept them is irrelevant. They're the guys that are there now and could give you a variant. Plus, they supposedly already know the system. They should have an advantage over those who do not.

And as I see it, that should have been done earlier in the season, I can't see a winning team attempting to do that now. I agree Bogans should be limited, but I think the rotations should be limited to 8 players (possibly 9): Hill, Parker, Duncan, Dice, Blair, Bonner, Jefferson, Ginobili, and a combination of minor minutes for Fin, Mase, or Bogans.

A cursory look at the schedule can tell you that the only reason we have the record we currently do is because we were consistently beating teams under .500 and because we were playing a bulk of our games at home. We just lost to two teams under .500 on the road and struggled mightily to beat another. Granted, a small sample size, but in my opinion it's indicative that our current record is fool's gold.

If the coaching staff would be currently fielding a consistent rotation, then I would agree with you that those are the players. I would actually move Bonner to the minor minutes category (should really be a situational category). But the coaching staff keeps on tinkering right now, so if we're being inconsistent for the sake of finding a solution to our struggles, handing some small minutes to other players to see what they can give you is not going to make things any more inconsistent. They already are.

[MrFundamental]

Tim Duncan already needs help on defense.
Manu Ginobili already needs help on defense.
Tony Parker, hobbled, needs help on defense.

Team defense.

If, on top of that, you keep on adding role players that do not play defense, then you're compounding the problem, not solving it. Matt Bonner has been with the team for 4 seasons. He has no excuse for not knowing the system, or missing defensive rotations. And that's besides the fact that even when he does get it right, he simply does not have the tools to actually stop people.
When the argument is that your starters have been selected to set the defensive tone (Pop said it, not me), then it makes zero to put that guy in that position.

I agree, Pops needs to figure out what he actually wants, defense at all positions, or consistent team D while taking the chance at minimal D at one position.

Why they kept them is irrelevant. They're the guys that are there now and could give you a variant. Plus, they supposedly already know the system. They should have an advantage over those who do not.

It's not irrelevant when you claimed they kept them for a reason. If the only reason they had to keep them was because no one else wanted them, why should they play?

If the coaching staff would be currently fielding a consistent rotation, then I would agree with you that those are the players. I would actually move Bonner to the minor minutes category (should really be a situational category). But the coaching staff keeps on tinkering right now, so if we're being inconsistent for the sake of finding a solution to our struggles, handing some small minutes to other players to see what they can give you is not going to make things any more inconsistent. They already are.

According to Wayne Winston Bonner is included in a top 3 rotation. You can't give someone like that minor minutes. And yes, you can actually be more inconsistent by adding 2 more variables to the equation. Looking back, Hairston had a chance at the beginning of the season with getting minutes, he under performed. I agree that Ian hasn't really had as good of a chance, but with his propensity to foul, and Pops having no tolerance for stupid fouls, I'm not really surprised he hasn't gotten to play too much. Perhaps they are working with him on that; to play some actual D instead of getting in trouble and getting called for a foul (see: Tim Duncan).

[ElNono]

One other issue to consider as far as defense goes, is that the league has gone with twin towers almost on every top team. It's easy to say 'team defense', but if Tim already has his hands full with Gasol, he can't just leave him alone to help with Bynum. Rinse and repeat with Perkins/Garnett, KMart/Nene, etc etc etc...
That's why Harlem keeps pointing out the need for another legit 7 footer...
Dice was the guy we got for that role, but he's a step slow and he's still somewhat undersized. He's been playing better, so there's always a glimmer of hope, but being undersized and not that mobile means he already is in a disadvantaged position.

[MrFundamental]

One other issue to consider as far as defense goes, is that the league has gone with twin towers almost on every top team. It's easy to say 'team defense', but if Tim already has his hands full with Gasol, he can't just leave him alone to help with Bynum. Rinse and repeat with Perkins/Garnett, KMart/Nene, etc etc etc...
That's why Harlem keeps pointing out the need for another legit 7 footer...
Dice was the guy we got for that role, but he's a step slow and he's still somewhat undersized. He's been playing better, so there's always a glimmer of hope, but being undersized and not that mobile means he already is in a disadvantaged position.

And that's when your team defensive rotations have to be solid, and you can't have a big man that gets into foul trouble.

[TJastal]

One other issue to consider as far as defense goes, is that the league has gone with twin towers almost on every top team. It's easy to say 'team defense', but if Tim already has his hands full with Gasol, he can't just leave him alone to help with Bynum. Rinse and repeat with Perkins/Garnett, KMart/Nene, etc etc etc...
That's why Harlem keeps pointing out the need for another legit 7 footer...
Dice was the guy we got for that role, but he's a step slow and he's still somewhat undersized. He's been playing better, so there's always a glimmer of hope, but being undersized and not that mobile means he already is in a disadvantaged position.

McDyess would be fine starting next to Tim, especially with the way he's been playing lately, but the problem is the backups, Blair and Bonner are just too weak defensively to have on the court together. This could be the reason Pop moved Bonner to the starting lineup, in order to "hide" both of their defensive shortcomings.

This situation is okay for the 2nd unit (McDyess and Blair are a solid backup combo) but this leaves the starting lineup in a twist, in need of a starting quality center. It puts alot of added pressure on Tim Duncan. The situation could have been remedied by keeping Ratliff and placing him in the starting lineup, using the 1st half of the season developing Ian Mahinmi, or by working a trade for a young shotblocker like Tyrus Thomas. Despite these options, Popovich elected to be a lazy stubborn jackass and give Duncan no help whatsoever. Which is inexcusable.

[ElNono]

Team defense.

You need to have defensive players to play team defense. When we had Bowen it was a lot easier to double up other guys. When Duncan had enough lift to come from the weak side as a help defender and block shots it was a lot easier to allow penetration. These days, because Tim's decline and lack of perimeter defenders, once a guy beat his man he's pretty much into our paint.

It's not irrelevant when you claimed they kept them for a reason.

Quote where I said that? I said they FO decided to keep them. I don't know the reasons, and they're irrelevant. If the FO really wanted to dump them, they could easily done so. , they can still waive them and get two more guys from the Toros. They can send Hairston back to the D-League and get somebody else from there.

If the only reason they had to keep them was because no one else wanted them, why should they play?

Because the guys that are getting playing time are not getting it done? Because we keep on changing lineups anyways, so there's really no reason not to play them for a modi of time to see what you have?
It's undeniable that the Spurs spent considerable resources on both players. Why not take a look at what you got for your money?

According to Wayne Winston Bonner is included in a top 3 rotation. You can't give someone like that minor minutes.

LOL, that's points better than average per 48, in other words, an offensive chart. You want to see overall numbers on 5 man floor combinations, including offense, defense, plus/minus and win/loss? here

Look at the Win%. Out of the top 10 lineup combinations, the very first to include Bonner is ranked 6, the other one is dead last.
Actually, the dead last one is ranked #4 in minutes played. Just sad.

And yes, you can actually be more inconsistent by adding 2 more variables to the equation. Looking back, Hairston had a chance at the beginning of the season with getting minutes, he under performed.

When? He logged more than 5 minutes in 4 games this season. He only logged 10 minutes or more in one single game.

I agree that Ian hasn't really had as good of a chance, but with his propensity to foul, and Pops having no tolerance for stupid fouls, I'm not really surprised he hasn't gotten to play too much. Perhaps they are working with him on that; to play some actual D instead of getting in trouble and getting called for a foul (see: Tim Duncan).

I'm personally not that high on Ian myself. But honestly, I'm sick tired of the layup parade, and it's way too easy to get Duncan out of the way these days. Honestly, if you go back to the start of the season, Blair used to make all those dumb fouls too. He corrected that by the 4th or 5th game. Would it be the same with Ian? You don't know until you try.

[ElNono]

And that's when your team defensive rotations have to be solid, and you can't have a big man that gets into foul trouble.

I don't care how good your rotations are, there's a gap in the talent level, defensively speaking. You take a team like the Lakers, and we could rotate and help on players because we already had his top player single covered. Nowadays, Odom posts RJ, and how do you send help? Tony Parker isn't going to do much at all to bother him. Send any of the two bigs and you just gave two 7 footers entry right under the rim. On top of that, outside of Manu and perhaps Hill, we basically have nobody that can either take a charge or steal a ball.

[MrFundamental]

Quote where I said that? I said they FO decided to keep them.

OK, you didn't say for a reason, but you say they decided to keep them, when in fact that decision may have been because they couldn't get rid of them. In other words, if I decide to give you a broken TV and you decline, I didn't decide to keep the TV, I only have it by default.

If the FO really wanted to dump them, they could easily done so.

How?

, they can still waive them and get two more guys from the Toros. They can send Hairston back to the D-League and get somebody else from there.

And what good would that do? You still have 2 D-leaguers that aren't going to play. You seem to be advocating change for the sake of change, not because it will help.

LOL, that's points better than average per 48, in other words, an offensive chart. You want to see overall numbers on 5 man floor combinations, including offense, defense, plus/minus and win/loss? here

Look at the Win%. Out of the top 10 lineup combinations, the very first to include Bonner is ranked 6, the other one is dead last.
Actually, the dead last one is ranked #4 in minutes played. Just sad.

And Bogans is in the 2nd and 3rd ranked unit for win percentage, I don't think you want to go that route

When? He logged more than 5 minutes in 4 games this season. He only logged 10 minutes or more in one single game.

And he didn't do anything with the time given to him, even in scrub time. You are advocating they get 10 a piece, yet when he had time he didn't produce.

I'm personally not that high on Ian myself. But honestly, I'm sick tired of the layup parade, and it's way too easy to get Duncan out of the way these days. Honestly, if you go back to the start of the season, Blair used to make all those dumb fouls too. He corrected that by the 4th or 5th game. Would it be the same with Ian? You don't know until you try.[/quote]
Blair still fouls way too much, which is probably why he doesn't see the floor as much as he should. Against Indy he played 10 minutes and had 5 fouls.

[MrFundamental]

I don't care how good your rotations are, there's a gap in the talent level, defensively speaking. You take a team like the Lakers, and we could rotate and help on players because we already had his top player single covered. Nowadays, Odom posts RJ, and how do you send help? Tony Parker isn't going to do much at all to bother him. Send any of the two bigs and you just gave two 7 footers entry right under the rim.

And how would Ian or Hairston solve that?

On top of that, outside of Manu and perhaps Hill, we basically have nobody that can either take a charge or steal a ball.

And you don't need that all the time. the Spurs are only ~.5 steals a game behind Cleveland and Orlando.

BTW, the new 48MoH article basically reiterates what we are both saying, the Spurs are letting teams get to the hoop to easy and fouling too much as a result. I think in the end we both recognize the problem, yet have differing opinions on how to solve it.

[MrFundamental]

LOL, that's points better than average per 48, in other words, an offensive chart. You want to see overall numbers on 5 man floor combinations, including offense, defense, plus/minus and win/loss? here

Look at the Win%. Out of the top 10 lineup combinations, the very first to include Bonner is ranked 6, the other one is dead last.
Actually, the dead last one is ranked #4 in minutes played. Just sad.

If opponents getting to the rim is now supposedly the problem, it seems that a unit of Parker-Ginobili-Jefferson-Bonner-Duncan is the best at solving that problem.

# Unit eFG eFGA FTA Close dClose Reb T/O
8 Parker-Ginobili-Jefferson-Bonner-Duncan .415 .385 +24 34% 23% 46.0% +2%