One Simple Request

[ElNono]

OK, you didn't say for a reason, but you say they decided to keep them, when in fact that decision may have been because they couldn't get rid of them.

That's speculation. And honestly, it doesn't matter.

In other words, if I decide to give you a broken TV and you decline, I didn't decide to keep the TV, I only have it by default.

You can offer the TV to other people. You can simply toss it in the curb.
The analogy is not very good. The Spurs simply have options besides trading them if they don't want them to be part of the roster. Do you disagree with that?

How? And what good would that do? You still have 2 D-leaguers that aren't going to play.

How do you know they're not going to play? Are you privy to the coaching staff notes or discussions? (Yes, I'm pulling the same bull you're pulling on everyone else)

You seem to be advocating change for the sake of change, not because it will help.

How do you know it won't be helpful? Can you know if you don't try?

And Bogans is in the 2nd and 3rd ranked unit for win percentage, I don't think you want to go that route

Hey, you brought the numbers to make a point. I actually watch all the games. I trust my eyes more than a spreadsheet.
But I also think it really paints the defensive picture. We simply DO NOT have good defenders on this team anymore with the exception of a couple of guys that show up in pretty much every lineup combo there... (TD, Hill)

And he didn't do anything with the time given to him, even in scrub time. You are advocating they get 10 a piece, yet when he had time he didn't produce.

We gave over half a season to Bogans, basically for nothing. Is it too much to ask to give him 10 mins on 10 straight games and see what he can give you?

Blair still fouls way too much, which is probably why he doesn't see the floor as much as he should. Against Indy he played 10 minutes and had 5 fouls.

He's also severely undersized. I understand that he has a really big wingspan and he can leap (compared to TD anyways), but tall guys simply shot over him. I actually have looked at Blair closely defensively lately, and he really doesn't do much of anything other than try to hold position and pray for a miss so he can corral the rebound. I love the kid and his energy, but that's just not going to get it done at the other end. (Rookie caveat emptor and what not).

[ElNono]

And how would Ian or Hairston solve that?

Lateral quickness. The reason RJ can't guard Odom is not size. It's that Richard simply does not have the lateral quickness to prevent anybody from going around him and straight to the basket.
We need more athletes to match against other athletes.

And you don't need that all the time. the Spurs are only ~.5 steals a game behind Cleveland and Orlando.
BTW, the new 48MoH article basically reiterates what we are both saying, the Spurs are letting teams get to the hoop to easy and fouling too much as a result. I think in the end we both recognize the problem, yet have differing opinions on how to solve it.

We used to be one of the top teams generating turnovers about 3 seasons ago. It's part of everything. Sometimes stops don't just come from contesting shots. But yes, the layup parade has been a huge problem. And the reason we foul so much is because we also no longer have an above average shot blocker in TD. And this takes us back to why I wanted to see a little more of Ratliff. He's a guy that might not do many things right. But he can either block or change shots enough to give the defense time to recover.
But that's obviously history now.

[MrFundamental]

That's speculation. And honestly, it doesn't matter.

It completely matters relative to your claim.

You can offer the TV to other people. You can simply toss it in the curb.
The analogy is not very good. The Spurs simply have options besides trading them if they don't want them to be part of the roster. Do you disagree with that?

No, I don't disagree. Do you disagree that it makes less sense to drop those 2 now and pick up 2 other journeymen when these 2 don't play anyway?

How do you know they're not going to play? Are you privy to the coaching staff notes or discussions? (Yes, I'm pulling the same bull you're pulling on everyone else)

I don't know, I basing it off the past 2 months. Though it seems Ian is actually getting some minutes.

How do you know it won't be helpful? Can you know if you don't try?

Of course you can't completely know, but you can have a good idea from things other then game minutes.

\Hey, you brought the numbers to make a point. I actually watch all the games. I trust my eyes more than a spreadsheet.

Unless that spreadsheet happens to agree with you...

How do you know it won't be helpful? Can you know if you don't try?

Of course you can't completely know, but you can have a good idea from things other then game minutes.

Is it too much to ask to give him 10 mins on 10 straight games and see what he can give you?

At this point in the season, yes.

[ElNono]

If opponents getting to the rim is now supposedly the problem, it seems that a unit of Parker-Ginobili-Jefferson-Bonner-Duncan is the best at solving that problem.

But then you increase second chance points (2nd worst rebounding lineup) and decrease offensive output (2nd worst eFG, and worst eFGA).

Coincidentally, do you think think it's by pure chance that Bonner is part of the two worse rebounding lineups listed there?

[ElNono]

It completely matters relative to your claim.

Again, I asked you for a quote to any claims, and you responded:

OK, you didn't say for a reason

What claim?

No, I don't disagree. Do you disagree that it makes less sense to drop those 2 now and pick up 2 other journeymen when these 2 don't play anyway?

Ok, we agree then that the Spurs could have moved them and they didn't.
And it does make sense in Ian's case. The Spurs could have dumped his salary and saved on the luxury tax. timvp actually mentioned being surprised that the Spurs didn't do exactly that.

I don't know, I basing it off the past 2 months. Though it seems Ian is actually getting some minutes.

So you don't know, but somehow your opinion carries more weight for no reason whatsoever...

Of course you can't completely know, but you can have a good idea from things other then game minutes.

Like what? I mean, Hairston hasn't even been with the team for long stretches, so practices are out of the question at least for him.

Unless that spreadsheet happens to agree with you...

I've yet to see you posting a spreadsheet that doesn't agree with you...
But I didn't bring the numbers game here, you did.

At this point in the season, yes.

Based on what? Are you privy to coaching notes or decisions nobody knows about?

[MrFundamental]

But then you increase second chance points (2nd worst rebounding lineup)

Which is a side effect of letting teams shoot jumpings and holding them to a low percentage.

and decrease offensive output (2nd worst eFG, and worst eFGA).

I think we want eFGA to be low:

eFGA = the effective shooting percentage allowed to opponents.

But, yes, the poor shooting has hounded the team as well.

Coincidentally, do you think think it's by pure chance that Bonner is part of the two worse rebounding lineups listed there?

Of course not.

[MrFundamental]

Again, I asked you for a quote to any claims, and you responded:

What claim?

Wow:

And the reason the other guys should play is because those are the guys that the FO decided to keep

So you're saying the reason they kept them is insignificant to the fact that they are still on the team, is that what I'm getting?

Ok, we agree then that the Spurs could have moved them and they didn't.
And it does make sense in Ian's case. The Spurs could have dumped his salary and saved on the luxury tax. timvp actually mentioned being surprised that the Spurs didn't do exactly that.

Gotta have someone on the active roster.

So you don't know, but somehow your opinion carries more weight for no reason whatsoever...

Holy . Isn't that the point of this ing place, to argue opinions? Christ, this place would be pretty ing boring if everyone agreed.

I've yet to see you posting a spreadsheet that doesn't agree with you...

So I'm supposed to post something that doesn't agree with me? That would have to be the dumbest ing thing to do if I wanted to show myself right.

But I didn't bring the numbers game here, you did.

I did, then you attempted to debunk my numbers by posting your own.

Based on what? Are you privy to coaching notes or decisions nobody knows about?

Yes, I actually am. I have Pops' number on speed dial.

Jesus, just when you actually start to have some substantial posts and get somewhere, you post some bull like this again. You must seriously be hurt about that Ratliff trade, I suggest counseling.

[ElNono]

Which is a side effect of letting teams shoot jumpings and holding them to a low percentage.

It's also a side effect of having a poor rebounder in the lineup.
As the timeless PJ Carlesimo once said: "Defense doesn't end with a stop. Defense ends with a defensive rebound".

I think we want eFGA to be low:

Yes, we do, we do.

But, yes, the poor shooting has hounded the team as well.

I would characterize it as poor offensive execution. I think we're not getting the shots we really want, because of a number of reasons, including having our big 3 either on the decline or hobbled.

[ElNono]

Wow:

I must be blind. I still see no reason spelled out there.

So you're saying the reason they kept them is insignificant to the fact that they are still on the team, is that what I'm getting?

You must have trouble either reading or comprehending.

Gotta have someone on the active roster.

Sure. Doesn't have to be Ian or Malik though.

Holy . Isn't that the point of this ing place, to argue opinions? Christ, this place would be pretty ing boring if everyone agreed.

The point is that when you post your opinion, you have to back it up.
And when you're shown to be wrong, you need to let it go.

So I'm supposed to post something that doesn't agree with me? That would have to be the dumbest ing thing to do if I wanted to show myself right.

The dumbest thing you do is to keep on pushing the same opinions when they've been debunked.

I did, then you attempted to debunk my numbers by posting your own.

Well, when we're talking defense and you bring up an offensive chart, I mean, what else there is to add?

Yes, I actually am. I have Pops' number on speed dial.

Jesus, just when you actually start to have some substantial posts and get somewhere, you post some bull like this again. You must seriously be hurt about that Ratliff trade, I suggest counseling.

I have substantial posts with a lot of people here. But when you bring garbage, then I can play that game too.

[Blackjack]

As stated before, I actually took the time to read this whole thread in an effort to ascertain MrFundamental's purpose and the logic for the incessant gibberish ... and failed miserably.

I found one pretty solid take:

As I said before, Ratliff was brought in at the beginning of the season because of certain positives, at the trade deadline those positives were outweighed by saving Holt some money. That is why they signed him initially and then traded him for what amounts to cash. Apparently it really was that hard for you to understand.

That's all, folks . . .

What exactly are you arguing?

More of the same? exhausting all options and allowing the team to have a better idea of what they have and will need moving forward?

The arguments you've presented, at best, maintain the status quo, which, last time I checked, wasn't good enough and would only preclude the team from improving now and setting themselves up better going into next year.

I formulate my views on my own experiences and with my own eyes; simply allowing the decisions of Pop to be the be-all end-all (as it pertains to players -- smaller contributors) when they're based mostly on a comfort level and in a risk-adverse fashion, is not exactly my cup of tea.

They're are pros and cons to everything in life, infusing a little more youth, energy and talent into the supporting cast of a stale team, isn't all that risky of a decision at this point -- the pros far outweigh the cons now, and moving forward . . .

[MrFundamental]

As stated before, I actually took the time to read this whole thread in an effort to ascertain MrFundamental's purpose and the logic for the incessant gibberish ... and failed miserably.

You're right, I should have just posted

"Pops is teh suxxorz, long live Ian, long live Malik, take us to the promise land, anyone that disagrees is a popsucker"

The arguments you've presented, at best, maintain the status quo, which, last time I checked, wasn't good enough and would only preclude the team from improving now and setting themselves up better going into next year.

Wasn't good enough to what exactly?

They're are pros and cons to everything in life, infusing a little more youth, energy and talent into the supporting cast of a stale team, isn't all that risky of a decision at this point -- the pros far outweigh the cons now, and moving forward . . .

, I've said the same ing thing. If you would pull your head out of your ass you probably would have seen it. it was in a reply to one of you posts

Wait a sec, you say that they are heading for a first round loss or lottery, yet you disagree that they can't risk losing ground? What? Or have you given up and are content with the fact that the upside of this season is a first round loss? If so, I'd be more then happy to give major minutes to Ian, Hairston, Blair, and Hill. , then bench Bogans, Mason, Parker, Duncan, and play with an 8 man rotation that includes Jefferson (he's got to learn the damn system sometime), Dice, Bonner, and Ginobili. Let's prepare for next season, at which point hopefully Pops can expand his playbook and maybe the team will play like they should.

You don't seem to think this team will do anyway, so why not completely give up and give the team to youth and athleticism.

Christ, I didn't know Spurs fans were some of the most pretentious assholes around, if you don't kowtow and sing Kumbaya-Pops-Sucks, you apparently don't know .

[Blackjack]

You, my friend, are a ruh- .

[MrFundamental]

You, my friend, are a ruh- .

And you, my friend, are un-original.

[Blackjack]

RUH-

[MrFundamental]

Un-Original

[Blackjack]

The original's often better; no need to improve upon.

[Mel_13]

These games are just uninspiring and mind-numbing. For the life of me, I just can't grasp what the Pop's really trying to do . . .

He's not tanking, as Tim and Manu are still out there busting their ass and Tony's been playing hurt up until today. But he's not trying to win, as he's never given the team and players any type of consistency to build anything fruitful.

Meanwhile, Keith Bogans continues to get his minutes and Hairston (the guy who outplayed him and, for all intents and purposes, beat him out for the job) can't even sniff the action -- Mahinmi was given up upon before being given the opportunity to be given up on (his option wasn't picked up, so allowing him to help or be useful for the time he's here just doesn't make sense ... right?).

This team's flawed; has been since Day 1. I never happened to drink the Kool-Aid that this team had what it took to win a championship with this group, or that RJ possessed the type of game to really propel the Spurs to the next level. The Spurs have won with a consistent formula consisting of particular types of players filling particular, specialized roles, and they didn't replenish those requisite facets/needs with the right people -- Bowen, Horry, Barry and serviceable 7-footers aren't made up for by Bogans, Bonner, Mason and a plethora of wings 6-7 or below manning the middle for an aging Tim.

So if I understood that going into the season and many others did as well, surely Pop and the crew knew they had some work to do. I mean, I know they were hopeful and optimistic (and they had reason to believe this team could be one or two, right, moves away from capturing another le), but they couldn't have been blind or ignorant of their reality, right?

And that was the outlook and hope for this presently constructed team given good health . . .

They haven't been healthy, and they still haven't filled those integral roles for their championship formula -- what's ensued has been predictable (to an extent; no one could see this cluster of cir stance) and woefully below their standard. So the fact that they're not in the championship discussion is more frustrating and depressing than surprising.

Surprising is the thought process and rationale we've come to expect from Coach Pop. I've never witnessed a year, with him at the helm, that lacked as much discipline and consistency as this one. There's just no reasonable end-game to the logic or payoff for the madness -- it's simply throwing against the wall and seeing what sticks (he's acquiesced to the point of losing his core, proven principles. Only the flesh he inhabits suggests he's the man that's guided this team to four les).

So I accepted this team's fate a good while ago and have been bearing witness to their games more than living or dying with each win or loss -- even lowered expectation can't prevent the empty feeling these outcomes bring, though. (Watching Tim play at this level and knowing that it's not promised for next year, just makes you sick to the stomach.) But watching Hill and Blair grow has been a bit of a saving grace. A glimmer of hope moving forward, at least.

This all-in bet the team placed was for a two-year window, and it could still be cashed in. They'd have to make some great, shrewd and smart moves, but, theoretically, it could be done. So if this team's going nowhere this year and the health of Tim, Tony and/or Manu is paramount moving forward, it's time for the team to start gearing up for next year. Allow the young guys to play through mistakes, evaluate them, maybe take a flier on a D-Leaguer or someone of that ilk, and bury Bogans, Finley and Mason on the bench -- see if you have or can find the perimeter defender needed and/or a cheap supporting cast member for next year.

Again, give me a light at the end of the tunnel, a reason to look forward to the game and, just maybe, a glimmer of hope.

That's all I ask.

This thread once held such promise....

[Blackjack]

I blame it all on MrFundamental. . .

[MrFundamental]

Yep, all my fault for having the audacity to disagree. My bad everyone, continue ing and moaning.

[ElNono]

This thread once held such promise....

There's a guy that knows how to bring the Bonner weak sauce and still keep it civilized...

[Blackjack]

That's it, though. You never stated why it is you disagree . . .

I don't have any problem with disagreement and if you're legitimately new to the board, maybe that's some sort of revelation to you.

I have discussions with people here all the time and I'd like to think I'm not one to come off as a condescending prick; that's never been my shtick.

But you've filled this thread with a whole bunch of nothin'; nothing in the way of suggestions to improve the team and it's standing now, or in the near future. So, maybe even somewhat regrettably, I broke character and decided to fight mind-numbing, leading-to-nowhere logic with a "Ruh- ". (If all else fails, eh?)

I'm not a Pop basher, I just happen to differ with his approach when it comes to his dealing with their younger players. But, apparently, if you're not rationalizing every one of his decisions or deferring to all his logic, you're "kowtowing". . .

Well, consider me one kowtowin' son ... you're welcome

[MrFundamental]

That's it, though. You never stated why it is you disagree . . .

I don't have any problem with disagreement and if you're legitimately new to the board, maybe that's some sort of revelation to you.

I have discussions with people here all the time and I'd like to think I'm not one to come off as a condescending prick; that's never been my shtick.

But you've filled this thread with a whole bunch of nothin'; nothing in the way of suggestions to improve the team and it's standing now, or in the near future. So, maybe even somewhat regrettably, I broke character and decided to fight mind-numbing, leading-to-nowhere logic with a "Ruh- ". (If all else fails, eh?)

I'm not a Pop basher, I just happen to differ with his approach when it comes to his dealing with their younger players. But, apparently, if you're not rationalizing every one of his decisions or deferring to all his logic, you're "kowtowing". . .

Well, consider me one kowtowin' son ... you're welcome

You don't want to come off as a condescending prick, at the same time your post makes you sound like a condescending prick. Gotcha. As I said, continue the Pops is teh suxxorz, go D-League talk.

[TD 21]

I agree, in that it's not one-hundred percent on RJ that he's looked a s of his former self, but I'm not sure having him succeed in the fashion that's got him his money is conducive to winning.

There are some players that are gifted, talented and viewed as stars because their stats and individual ability impresses or amazes at times. But when you really break them down and ask how much of what they do or excel at would cons ute a winning ball player, someone that's impact on the game isn't quantifiable with stats necessarily, that's where you see their true worth. I'd ask this: What is it about RJ's a en for the game, offensive repertoire or defensive ability that truly stands out? What is there about his game that makes others better or makes the game easier for others, and how useful is he if he's not out in the open court and putting points on the board?

There's no doubt in my mind Pop and the Spurs could find a way to make RJ look more like the player people have grown accustomed to over the last couple of years, but I'm afraid it'd only translate into the Spurs mirroring the teams he put those numbers up on (which, sadly, they're not too far from).



Like I said, it's not sexy or all that desirable, but it could be a decent pick up at the end of the day -- it seems all but certain if his price is right.



See, you're talking about what they're going to do and I was simply stating what I'd like them to do. I don't really have much of a disagreement with the players (or players along the same lines) you've mentioned the Spurs are likely to sign.

As an aside, apparently McGuire got traded to the Kings for a second-rounder . . .



In terms of level of player and status in the league, more or less comparable. Splitter's a more offensively talented player and maybe more gifted than both, but his impact and worth (somewhat like the RJ argument) might not be as great as someone like Varejao (with his hustle, energy and savvy) or Gortat (who's a stronger more disruptive defender). I think he'll be viewed as the better player and probably put up more impressive stats, I just question whether that will mean he's a better, more valuable player.

I get it, the Spurs are a slow it down, grind it out, half court team that generally either plays through Duncan in the post or with Parker/Ginobili operating up top in a pick-and-roll. Obviously, that's not conducive to Jefferson, a runner and a jumper, who excels by leaking out, getting out on the break and finishing in transition. But you don't become a 20 ppg scorer in this league (generally speaking, there are exceptions like O'Neal) without being able to score in a mul ude of ways. Jefferson has never been a great shooter, but he's gradually improved as his career has wore on and he's always been adept at slashing and getting to the free throw line. In other words, he has enough of a well rounded offensive game that, even though his strengths may not jive with that of the Spurs system, he should still be effective in other ways. That he's not is a failure on his part, on the team and on the coaching staff, but it's not because he shouldn't be capable of scoring (and thriving at times, considering he's essentially an afterthought for opposing defenses on this team) within' the system.

Basketball is a cerebral game, far more technical than most either realize or give it credit for, but at the end of the day, the basics are simple. Generally speaking, if you have talent, commitment and work ethic, things should work well. Jefferson and the Spurs may not be a perfect marriage, but it should be a lot better than it is.

I understand your point with regards to McGuire, but can't see the Spurs bringing him in, for reasons previously stated. The Wizards dumped him in order to get under the luxury tax line.

I agree with what you said about Splitter.

for quite some time I would have agreed, even at this deadline, if we got Bell as a fall back option instead of getting nothing.
however, this summer I would really hate to see such a move. another time a then 34 years old player. no. as long as the argument was, this is the best to extend the championship window, it made some sense. but in the current situation it's just a move with no upside but a lot of downside for the future. (once more a washed up guy takes the minutes a player like Hairstone, or another young guy, would desperately need for his development).
not that I knew a great option, especially when thinking that the best offer will be the LLE (assuming MLE, or major part of it will go to Splitter).
Daniels signed for the LLE with Boston. I guess this will be the bar. we won't get a player who can be a stopper AND is a good shooter for that money.
Antoine Wright might be an interesting option for the LLE. his shooting has improved in the last 2 years and he could be a decent defender in a good system. no real stopper of course. I'm still hoping that Hairston develops this qualities.
btw. Mo Evans has a player option this summer. maybe he opts out, his role with the Hawks has decreased. he makes 2.5 million per. yes, he isn't young any more either, but at 31 he should have 2 or 3 decent years left. if I remember right, the Spurs were interested in signing him in 2006. maybe there is enough left from the MLE after Splitter to offer him. (like Splitter gets 3years/10M and Evans 3years/7.5M)



Splitter is a much more talented player than both. no doubt about that. if this guarantees that he will provide more impact? don't know. but for me the point is: it could happen. he could become a decent to good NBA player. I mean Marc Gasol or Scola level.
Spurs currently have very little of those options, where the best case is a starter quality player.
Splitter isn't a shot blocker, right.
we still have this draft and a pick from 14 to 22.
this draft is deep in 2 areas, that's power bigs (PF, PF/C) and combo forwards.
if we see Tim-Blair-Splitter-Dice as our rotation next year and Splitter-Blair as core for the future, a mobile shotblocker looks like the best compliment for both situations. I'm a big fan of Greg Monroe, but maybe Ekpe Udoh is the better option considering this. with Jerome Jordan as a fall back option.

I agree with your comments about Bell, but I'm not sure there's a better realistic option available, unless you want to see the job handed to Hairston and a flier taken on McGuire/Wright or someone of that ilk. If the Spurs want someone proven (if in decline), better than Bogans, without giving up any assets and for a reasonable price on a short-term contract, then Bell will probably be their best option available.

Wright is more or less Bogans. He's more of a long-armed, almost spidery type defender, but he's an inconsistent shooter and not quite a stopper.

Evans is a slightly better version of Bogans, but again, not a stopper.

I give you credit though, those are both affordable, realistic options, that I wouldn't be surprised to see the Spurs look in to. But given the choice between Bell, Wright and Evans, I'm picking Bell. I know he's not ideal, but his worst is still comparable to those two's best.

I was shocked when I heard about them getting traded.

Still don't understand that.

Who, Bowen and Horry?

Jefferson was the best the Spurs could do for Bowen, who's contract was valuable until July 1st because of the partial guarantee, which means whoever acquired him (and Oberto) could instantly waive them and reap the rewards -- in the form of cap savings.

Horry, on the other hand, retired (though I still don't think he officially has). He had outlived his usefulness as a player.

[Blackjack]

You sure bring a whole lot of nothin'.

I've still yet to hear your assessment on team and what it is that would be the best way to go moving forward. . .

Any thought, or would you just prefer to disagree with what everyone else has to say and not offer anything of your own?

[ElNono]

You sure bring a whole lot of nothin'.

I've still yet to hear your assessment on team and what it is that would be the best way to go moving forward. . .

Any thought, or would you just prefer to disagree with what everyone else has to say and not offer anything of your own?

He endorses everything Pop is doing... even though he has no idea what Pop is doing...