Pop giving games away

[Obstructed_View]

Duncan in for Mahinmi

Ginobili in for Mason

Sure you sacrifice some team speed in the frontcourt, but you're still playing small and you still have the favorable defensive matchups (Hairston on Martin/Hill on Brooks).

Oh yeah...and you've got Tim freaking Duncan out on the court.

I just don't see how this is debatable.

Nobody was happier to see Mahinmi get minutes and be productive than I was, but there's no way around the fact that Duncan should probably have gone in once Blair fouled out unless this game was nothing more than a way of playing guys that aren't going to play again just to drive a point home to the starters. When Bogans and Finley get 20+ minutes going forward and continue to be horrid, Pop won't even remember this game.

[ElNono]

I just don't see how this is debatable.

If you're trying to win the game, it's not. The only arguable thing is if you want to have Ian or RJ, based on playing small or not. Ian did a good job blocking Brooks in the paint. After that Aaron was shooting jumpers.

[AFBlue]

It doesn't increase the odds of winning. If anything, it decreases them.

Adding the late-game experience and talent of an all-time great and a super-sub decreases chances of winning?

[Thompson]

Pop has put Duncan back in when we've closed a gap in the past; unless Pop is borderline thinking of tanking, I don't know what he's doing. Maybe he's seeing if we screw around for a couple of games whether Houston or New Orleans will catch up.

Maybe the Spurs have a line on a guy they think they'd have to have a top 14 pick to get. That's all I can figure with Parker's various 'ailments' and Pop's weird rotations/lack of subs utions/etc.

[Buddy Holly]

Adding the late-game experience and talent of an all-time great and a super-sub decreases chances of winning?

, if late game experience is all that's needed, sub in Finley and Dice while we're at it. We'd have come back from being down 23 and blown them out plus 10 with all that late game experience.

And Duncan of now is no longer at the level he once was that made him a all time great talent and Manu isn't the the super-sub he once was especially if you factor in having a ty game and compounded with being on the bench for over 30 minutes.

I know you're a Spurs fan as I am but don't be so delusional as to where Tim and Manu are as of Feb 2010. They weren't coming in and taking over and winning the game. Sorry.

[poop]

if i myself were making roster/playing time/rotation decisions instead of pop the spurs would be pushing 2nd in the west right now.

[spurs10]

Our starting lineup lost this game in the 1st quarter. If we go with that same group we are in big trouble on Sunday. It won't matter if Fin and Bogans feel bad about their play tonight, they probably did the best they could. I don't envy Pop for his task ahead, but it surely is going to require yet another starting lineup against the Suns. Maybe I'm way off and starting someone like the 7 foot, fast, foul prone Ian is basketball suicide, but so would going with tonight's starters.

[Buddy Holly]

if i myself were making roster/playing time/rotation decisions instead of pop the spurs would be pushing 2nd in the west right now.

Well, obviously.

[AFBlue]

Because they're in their 30's and had been sitting for a quarter and a half. Bringing them in late in the fourth DOES NOTHING for the Spurs but kill the offense and defense.

This isn't Manu and Tim of 5-6 years ago. If you think it is, I have a hot tub time machine to sell you.

Terrible argument.

Manu makes his living coming off the bench cold and lighting up.

And Tim Duncan is an all-time basketball player.

Something tells me both would've been fine being re-inserted after sitting a while.

I mean c'mon...are you really going to extend the "they're old" excuse from not playing back-to-backs to not being able to get back up after sitting a while?

I don't even think Pop would make that argument.

[AFBlue]

Our starting lineup lost this game in the 1st quarter. If we go with that same group we are in big trouble on Sunday. It won't matter if Fin and Bogans feel bad about their play tonight, they probably did the best they could. I don't envy Pop for his task ahead, but it surely is going to require yet another starting lineup against the Suns. Maybe I'm way off and starting someone like the 7 foot, fast, foul prone Ian is basketball suicide, but so would going with tonight's starters.

Not sure if you're replying directly to my thread, because I never said anything about inserting Bogans or Finley...ever!

I was talking about taking out one or two of the players they had on the floor and replacing them with Duncan and Ginobili. These guys are the stars and for them to be sitting at the end of the game is a clear signal that Pop had given up.

Why he'd given up is the question.

[spursbird]

Pop is such an idiot. If he kept starting Bogans and Finley, he should either fire himself or commit suicide.

[Obstructed_View]

Terrible argument.

Manu makes his living coming off the bench cold and lighting up.

And Tim Duncan is an all-time basketball player.

Something tells me both would've been fine being re-inserted after sitting a while.

I mean c'mon...are you really going to extend the "they're old" excuse from not playing back-to-backs to not being able to get back up after sitting a while?

I don't even think Pop would make that argument.

Well, there's little doubt that Duncan and Manu were stinking it up. The only questionable sub was Mahinmi instead of Duncan, but one could make a case that Pop was worried about putting Duncan into an "unwinnable" game cold and risking injury. Given Pop's complete overreaction on limiting player minutes the last several seasons, it's not inconsistent with that philosophy.

[AFBlue]

, if late game experience is all that's needed, sub in Finley and Dice while we're at it. We'd have come back from being down 23 and blown them out plus 10 with all that late game experience.

And Duncan of now is no longer at the level he once was that made him a all time great talent and Manu isn't the the super-sub he once was especially if you factor in having a ty game and compounded with being on the bench for over 30 minutes.

I know you're a Spurs fan as I am but don't be so delusional as to where Tim and Manu are as of Feb 2010. They weren't coming in and taking over and winning the game. Sorry.

This will be my last post of the night because it's like talking to a wall.

You're NEVER going to convince me that playing Ian Mahinmi over Tim Duncan in ANY cir stance where the game is on the line is the right thing to do.

And it's honestly not worth the effort of debate if you disagree.

[Buddy Holly]

[QUOTE=AFBlue;4119708]Terrible argument.

Manu makes his living coming off the bench cold and lighting up.

There's a difference between being well rested and starting a game on the bench and then playing as opposed to playing 25 minutes then sitting for 30 plus minutes and trying to play. It's a totally different body condition.

And Tim Duncan is an all-time basketball player.

Tim Duncan of today isn't saving that game, sorry, get that out of your head. You'd probably be posting about how Pop should have kept the hot players in the game instead of subbing the cold players if the situation were reversed.

Something tells me both would've been fine being re-inserted after sitting a while.

It's not winning us the game, sorry Charlie, it probably does more harm than good. They were out of it both mentality and physically. The sooner you accept it the better you'll be about last night.

I mean c'mon...are you really going to extend the "they're old" excuse from not playing back-to-backs to not being able to get back up after sitting a while?

What? Inserting Tim basically kills the momentum the offense had. Bottomline. And yes, a long rested Tim having already played many minutes in the game isn't coming in and winning the game for us.

I don't even think Pop would make that argument.

I don't care.

[Buddy Holly]

This will be my last post of the night because it's like talking to a wall.

You're NEVER going to convince me that playing Ian Mahinmi over Tim Duncan in ANY cir stance where the game is on the line is the right thing to do.

And it's honestly not worth the effort of debate if you disagree.

So this is your final post?

[ElNono]

I thought both TD and Manu had fine games in limited minutes... I mean, TD was the sole bright spot in the first quarter, and Manu was 2 points away from a double double in 24 minutes...
They didn't play great at the start of the second half, but it's ing though when you look left and you have the boogeyman and you look right and it's Finley.

[ElNono]

Please, we cut the lead to 9 with 10 minutes to go in the 4th... It's not like Tim and Manu were sitting for more than 12 minutes at that point...

[Josepatches_]

So this team is worse if Td is playing instead Jefferson or Mason.It's better to have a lineup Hill,Malik,Mason,Jefferson,Ian and not to play Duncan because he could kill the offense.

Interesting.Very interesting.

[jjktkk]

Right off the bat, this team was behind the 8 ball. Pop trotted out a lineup full of mismatches that favored Houston. Hill had his hands full with Brooks, Bogans with Martin and finley couldn't stay with anyone, Antonio was dead in the water and the only mismatch in the Spurs favor, Duncan was neutralized by the ref's failure to call all the fouls the rockets were tagging him with. the final lineup played very hard and impressed. But Ian and Hairston probably won't get too much more playing time. As they will be trotted back to the end of the bench. Very frustrating game.

I agree with the mismatches, except for Hill. Who exactly on the Spurs roster do you want guarding Brooks?

[Buddy Holly]

So this team is worse if Td is playing instead Jefferson or Mason.It's better to have a lineup Hill,Malik,Mason,Jefferson,Ian and not to play Duncan because he could kill the offense.

Interesting.Very interesting.

Yeah, that's what I said. That was my point. We should waive Duncan and Manu, you got me, that was the message I was trying to send out subconsciously.

[jbspurs]

Completely. If Duncan gets subbed in, the offense changes completely. It becomes 4 down mania and that wouldn't have worked.



If it isn't broke, don't fix it. Pop inserting Ian because he probably didn't care about the end result was a good thing because of Ian's quickness, length and athleticism not to mention he didn't have every play called for him which allowed Hairston, Hill and Jefferson to play fluid basketball.

Basketball Knowledge!!!

[TD 21]

So everyone is excited about Pop giving the young guys extra burn tonight and each of them seemingly capitalizing on the opportunity, but what's lost?

The Spurs...that's what.

I have to admit I was inspired by the play of Hill, Hairston, Blair, Mahinmi and even Jefferson (for a couple plays)...but when that young group got the game to a manageable defecit, youth should've given way to talent and experience.

Where were Tim and Manu down the stretch? Why has Pop stubbornly refused to play the young guys (except Hill) all season long but then put the game in their collectively inexperienced hands down the stretch?

Pop conceded the game in the third quarter...and for what? Can the Spurs actually afford for Pop to "give a lesson" to his veterans, or whatever reason Pop may have had?

I want to believe that Pop has a method to his madness...that he actually wants to give Tim an opportunity to earn a 5th ring. But I can't make heads or tails of the decision tonight.

Am I missing something?

That's because that was the first lineup in recent memory where the Spurs had a healthy dose of NBA caliber athleticism, length, speed/quickness on the floor. Chalk it up to young, hungry players playing hard in a blowout all you want, we've seen enough (minus Mahinmi's penchant for fouling, though he's not alone in that on this team) from Mahinmi/Hairston at this point to know that they're more than likely the 9th/10th best players (maybe even 8th/9th) on the team. If (and I know he won't; probably won't even activate Mahinmi) Pop doesn't play these two as regular rotation players going forward, then this team deserves to lose. Bogans, Bonner and Finley should be out of the rotation for the remainder of the season. They're terrible now and have no future with the Spurs. At least in the case of Hairston, he does have a future with the Spurs.

[AFBlue]

Tim Duncan of today isn't saving that game, sorry, get that out of your head. You'd probably be posting about how Pop should have kept the hot players in the game instead of subbing the cold players if the situation were reversed.

I'm not some irrational Pop hater that constantly questions his decisions. In fact, I don't think I've ever started a thread to this effect before.

So no, I wouldn't have started a thread if the situation had been reversed and the Spurs had still lost.

It just makes more sense that once a blowout turns into a manageable defecit, you put in your best players.

[Buddy Holly]

I'm not some irrational Pop hater that constantly questions his decisions. In fact, I don't think I've ever started a thread to this effect before.

So no, I wouldn't have started a thread if the situation had been reversed and the Spurs had still lost.

It just makes more sense that once a blowout turns into a manageable defecit, you put in your best players.

That statement had nothing to do with being a Pop hater or lover. It was a statement meant to address the hypertensive hindsight postings that are all too common here after losses.

[Slippy]

It just makes more sense that once a blowout turns into a manageable defecit, you put in your best players.

It sure does make sense. You could say Manu and Tim were penalised for playing with teammates who happen to start and contribute next to nothing . Except more burden for others from a team defense standpoint.