Convince me to be a Christian or atheist

[rjv]

you're not going to find any answers here.

[Leetonidas]

Protip: Most people believe in God because they're afraid to go to and they know if there is a God and they don't believe in him, no matter how extremely contradictory the bible is and how stupid and illogical organized religion, they're going to . So, as is human nature to wanna continue on and be part of something "bigger," so many sheeple just blindly follow religion because they don't wanna go to . They "believe" God has "talked" to them when in reality, they're delusional and their mind is playing tricks on them because they want so badly to believe.

Take it for what it's worth, but it's true. Not all people are like this, but I'd say 90% of Americans are.

[mrsmaalox]

The main reason why I have anger towards God is because of past disappointments. I'm not saying that I prayed for a million dollars or to get laid by a super model. I had realistic prayers that didn't get answered and it pissed me off. I also made a lot of terrible mistakes and choices in my past which have resulted in why I'm having this debate. God could have prevented me from making those bad mistakes and choices in my past or at least given me a sign or warning. I will admit that those choices and mistakes are my fault but I do blame God for letting me make them. And another reason why I'm pissed at God is because I want to know what my purpose is. I know that's a really deep question and that a couple billion people probably have the same question too but I need to know. I need to know what I'm suppose to do in life. My downward spiral started to begin when I got into college. That was the first time I realized what the world is really like because I was sheltered as a kid. I use to be a nice helpful caring person when I was younger but now I'm a negative pessimistic prick.

You have some very unreasonable expectations about God/religion. It appears as if you don't have much of an understanding of religion in general and it's place in your life. Maybe you need to do some research and study all religion, not just Christianity. Because until you understand that your religion comes from within you and not from outside, you may as well be searching for a genie in a bottle.

[baseline bum]

Protip: Most people believe in God because they're afraid to go to and they know if there is a God and they don't believe in him, no matter how extremely contradictory the bible is and how stupid and illogical organized religion, they're going to . So, as is human nature to wanna continue on and be part of something "bigger," so many sheeple just blindly follow religion because they don't wanna go to . They "believe" God has "talked" to them when in reality, they're delusional and their mind is playing tricks on them because they want so badly to believe.

Take it for what it's worth, but it's true. Not all people are like this, but I'd say 90% of Americans are.

I don't buy that. I think most people believe in god because most people's parents do, and they've had that belief instilled in them from a young age.

[Leetonidas]

I don't buy that. I think most people believe in god because most people's parents do, and they've had that belief instilled in them from a young age.

This is also true, parent's instill this belief into their kids, but the reason most people choose to continue believe is because they don't wanna go to . Almost every single person I've talked to about this gives me that answer. They ask me why I'm an atheist and if I'm afraid to go to . And I always get that stupid response; "well, if I believe and I'm wrong then nothing happens, but if I'm right then I'm going to heaven instead of ."

I don't care if people wanna be religious, that's fine. But IMO, if you only believe in God because you're afraid of what might happen if you don't, that's not a good reason to believe in God.

[Blake]

God is a God of free will and will not violate His principle of free will.

Interesting.

So why does God give free will to people on earth, but take away their free will when they get to Heaven?

[Goliadnative]

Interesting.

So why does God give free will to people on earth, but take away their free will when they get to Heaven?

Possible explanation

[Drachen]

Interesting.

So why does God give free will to people on earth, but take away their free will when they get to Heaven?

Why do you say this. It seems that there is free will in heaven.

[sonic21]

Some people have been raised to believe in God.
For others it's comforting, relieving, consoling, and gives meaning and purpose to life.
Some fear death.

[RandomGuy]

Right now, I'm kind of at a dark point of my life. With religion, I'm currently on the fence on whether to give Christianity another shot or if I should just give up on Christianity and religion in general and become an atheist. One of my new year's resolutions for 2010 was to figure this out by the end of the year. In my past especially when I was younger, I was a very loyal and faithful Christian but certain things happened and made me constantly doubt and question Christianity and God. Some of you are probably going to tell me shut the up or stop being a pussy or crying but I'm only asking for you guys to hear me out on this before you judge. Lately, I just don't see the point of beliving in God and Christianity. I think about it a lot too. I will admit that I have a lot of anger and resentment toward God about some things. I just need some input on this. So if you have any compelling arguments for either side, I would like to hear them.

Why limit yourself to just two options?

God as the many, of the Earth, i.e. Wicca:
http://www.wicca.org/

Islam:
http://www.jannah.org/qurantrans/

Hinduism:
http://www.us-hindus.com/

Buddhism:
http://www.buddhaweb.org/

Judism:
http://www.jewfaq.org/index.htm

, (HA!) there is even Scientology, but I will be damned (HA!) if I will post a link to that.

One God (or more depending), and many paths.

[RandomGuy]

Let's start with Judaism, because that's the tab I still have open.

What Do Jews Believe?

This is a far more difficult question than you might expect. Judaism has no dogma, no formal set of beliefs that one must hold to be a Jew. In Judaism, actions are far more important than beliefs, although there is certainly a place for belief within Judaism.

The closest that anyone has ever come to creating a widely-accepted list of Jewish beliefs is Rambam's thirteen principles of faith. Rambam's thirteen principles of faith, which he thought were the minimum requirements of Jewish belief, are:

G-d exists
G-d is one and unique
G-d is incorporeal
G-d is eternal
Prayer is to be directed to G-d alone and to no other
The words of the prophets are true
Moses' prophecies are true, and Moses was the greatest of the prophets
The Written Torah (first 5 books of the Bible) and Oral Torah (teachings now contained in the Talmud and other writings) were given to Moses
There will be no other Torah
G-d knows the thoughts and deeds of men
G-d will reward the good and punish the wicked
The Messiah will come
The dead will be resurrected
As you can see, these are very basic and general principles. Yet as basic as these principles are, the necessity of believing each one of these has been disputed at one time or another, and the liberal movements of Judaism dispute many of these principles.

Unlike many other religions, Judaism does not focus much on abstract cosmological concepts. Although Jews have certainly considered the nature of G-d, man, the universe, life and the afterlife at great length (see Kabbalah and Jewish Mysticism), there is no mandated, official, definitive belief on these subjects, outside of the very general concepts discussed above. There is substantial room for personal opinion on all of these matters, because as I said before, Judaism is more concerned about actions than beliefs.

Judaism focuses on relationships: the relationship between G-d and mankind, between G-d and the Jewish people, between the Jewish people and the land of Israel, and between human beings. Our scriptures tell the story of the development of these relationships, from the time of creation, through the creation of the relationship between G-d and Abraham, to the creation of the relationship between G-d and the Jewish people, and forward. The scriptures also specify the mutual obligations created by these relationships, although various movements of Judaism disagree about the nature of these obligations. Some say they are absolute, unchanging laws from G-d (Orthodox); some say they are laws from G-d that change and evolve over time (Conservative); some say that they are guidelines that you can choose whether or not to follow (Reform, Reconstructionist). For more on these distinctions, see Movements of Judaism.

So, what are these actions that Judaism is so concerned about? According to Orthodox Judaism, these actions include 613 commandments given by G-d in the Torah as well as laws ins uted by the rabbis and long-standing customs. These actions are discussed in depth on the page regarding Halakhah: Jewish Law and the pages following it.
http://www.jewfaq.org/beliefs.htm

.. and you have to give up pork and or s fish, for the most part.

I would note that before widespread education, the "keepers of knowledge" tended to be priests of one sort or another. Pigs are given to certain easily transmitted diseases to humans, like the trichanosis worm, etc. Given primitive understanding of medicine, I can see how it would be easy to conclude that God didn't like people who ate such things, if they were stricken with nasty things like that.

I personally really doubt that God cares per se about such things, although treating animals ethically is another discussion entirely.

I digress.

On to the next set of beliefs.

[RandomGuy]

Basic Tenets of Wicca-Craft

Wiccan Rede
Harmony
Reincarnation
Power Through Knowledge
Law of Attraction and imagine that
Deity
exists in the center of your star.



Deity: In the center of everything is the God-ess (This is our shorthand for the deity construct and should not be mis-taken to mean a specifically female or male deity construct.). Like Gravity, God-ess is impersonal. It treats everyone alike. It transcends gender and human emotions. Certain ideas cluster around the Deity. We, here, are syncretic monotheists.

Reincarnation: We define Reincarnation as an orderly system of learning through which a being progresses. This is not a tally of "sins" and punishments, nor is it a tally of good deeds. Compare human experiences to academic term papers, eg. a way of learning and improving.

Law of Attraction: What I do to other living creatures, I will draw to myself. Shakespeare called this Measure for Measure. It can also be expressed as "birds of a feather flock together." We do not, however, ascribe to the commonly called Law of Three where what I do comes back to me three times. We have had too much science in our backgrounds as one might think every action has an equal and opposite reaction.
The "Law of Three" that is so commonly touted, as a possible punishment when you are seen to be doing "bad" follows this concept: When you point your finger at another in judgement, anger, etc., you have three fingers pointing back at you. Where is the opportunity for spiritual growth? Your judgement of the person you are pointing one finger at? Or in reflecting upon the three fingers pointing back at you? Worth a moment to consider, eh?

Power Through Knowlege: Power (energy) resides within each living creature. One can learn how to direct power. Whether energy or power feels "good" or "evil" depends upon the sender's intention. In our more enlightened times (remember these tenets have been with us for many, many years), we like to say that this also means self-empowerment through knowledge. The place to grow and learn is, again, within you. The more wisdom (Wicca) you gain, the more you will find self-empowerment.

Harmony: One can perceive rhythms in the patterns of the sun, moon, and seasons. It makes sense to learn those rhythms and to live in harmony with them. This can balance out our lives and help us identify one's personal sense of harmony. Harmony and balance encourage to neither be too good nor too bad, but to find the balance in our lives.

Vertical or Horizontal Spirituality

Wicca -- Reaching towards Deity in spiritual growth is considered vertical.
Craft -- Magic and matters of this world are horizontal (pragmatic).
Achieving growth in both matters is a way to find balance (harmony).
Wicca-Craft

http://www.wicca.org/church/basictenets.html

[RandomGuy]

http://www.religion-cults.com/Islam/islam3.html

THE BASIC "TENETS" OF ISLAM:

The Five Basic Tenets:

1-There is only "one God", Allah, creator of the whole universe, who is just, compassionate, and merciful. The absolute unity and power resides in God. Creator of life and death, the guide to righteous, the friend and protector of the sick and the poor. He chastises eternally the infidels to , and he rewards the faithful with eternal Heaven.

-"Allah", "The God", comes from "Al" ("The"), and "Illah" ("God")... not just "a God", but "The God", for there is only one.

Believe in "Angels", who intercede with Allah for the forgiveness of the faithful.

2- "Muhammad", was the last of the great prophets. Jewish prophets and Jesus were his predecessors.

3- The "Koran", was the last of the sacred books, which include also the Torah, Psalms, and Gospels of Jesus.

4- "Life on Earth", is a test and only a preparation for the eternal life to come. the "faithful" are those who adore Allah, praise the Prophet Muhammad, obey the Koran doing good deeds, and fulfill the 5 pillars of Islam.

The Koran forbids representation of human and animal figures. It denounces usury, games of chance, alcohol, pork... "pride" is a cardinal sin.

5- The "Final Judgment": The faithful will go to eternal Heaven, and the infidels to eternal , with the vividly rewards and punishments recorded in the Koran.

Islam-3
Pillars of Islam

Basic Tenets of Islam:
- 5 Basic Tenets
- 5 Pillars- The Hajj: Kiss the "Kaaba", the Mosque
- 5 Social Doctrines: Women... "Holy War" (a "jihad")

The Hajj, Masjid Al Haram, Makkah, Arabia

Art Gallery of Islam


THE BASIC "TENETS" OF ISLAM:

The basic tenets of Islam have some similarities to those "monotheistic" of the small group near Mecca, called the "Hanifs or Penitents", and to those of the Bible:
1- Five "basic tenets".
2- Five "pillars of Islam":
3- Five "social doctrines".

The Five Basic Tenets:

1-There is only "one God", Allah, creator of the whole universe, who is just, compassionate, and merciful. The absolute unity and power resides in God. Creator of life and death, the guide to righteous, the friend and protector of the sick and the poor. He chastises eternally the infidels to , and he rewards the faithful with eternal Heaven.

-"Allah", "The God", comes from "Al" ("The"), and "Illah" ("God")... not just "a God", but "The God", for there is only one.

Believe in "Angels", who intercede with Allah for the forgiveness of the faithful.

2- "Muhammad", was the last of the great prophets. Jewish prophets and Jesus were his predecessors.

3- The "Koran", was the last of the sacred books, which include also the Torah, Psalms, and Gospels of Jesus.

4- "Life on Earth", is a test and only a preparation for the eternal life to come. the "faithful" are those who adore Allah, praise the Prophet Muhammad, obey the Koran doing good deeds, and fulfill the 5 pillars of Islam.

The Koran forbids representation of human and animal figures. It denounces usury, games of chance, alcohol, pork... "pride" is a cardinal sin.

5- The "Final Judgment": The faithful will go to eternal Heaven, and the infidels to eternal , with the vividly rewards and punishments recorded in the Koran.

This is how the life of the faithful is described in the Koran, Sura 2:

... "True piety is this: To believe in God, and the Last Day, the angels and the Book, and the prophets, to give one's substance however cherished to kinsmen and orphans, the needy, the traveler, the beggars, and to ransom the slave, to perform prayers, and to pay the alms, and they who fulfill the covenant and endure with for ude, misfortune, hardships and peril, these are they who are true in their faith, these are the truly God-fearing".

The "Five Pillars" of Islam:

1- Profession of Faith, Shahadah, "There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is his prophet".
2- "Prayer": "Five times a day"... "Fridays"... The "Salat":
3- "Give alms", "Zakat"
4- "Fasting", "Sawm", on the month of "Ramadan"
5- "Pilgrimage to Mecca", the "Hajj"

Again with the pork thing.

That and it would probably surprise a few here that muslims study the teachings of Jesus...

[RandomGuy]

Hinduism is unique among the great Religions of the world in that it had no single founder or Messiah nor a single book as a source but grew gradually over a period of several thousand years. The Hindu society is the product of many races and many cultures with several forms of practice. It evolved out of the varying faiths in different groups of the community as it was absorbing and assimilating all the diversified social movements and cultural practices of India. Consequently, it does not have a single Holy book as a source to guide all, like a Bible or Koran or Dhammapadam. Most of their beliefs and practices are based on the teachings of the Vedas, Agamas, Upanishads and several books written, based on these texts. Large portions of these texts are lost.


Hindus believe that their religion is without beginning, even preceding the creation of human race and the creation of the universe. They believe that creation of the universe and its lives are without beginning or end and is a continuous process, a cycle of creation and dissolution. The Vedas are the very breath of this process with which Lord Brahma, the creator, creates the universe and all its lives. The name "Hindu" is said to have been derived from the name given by the Western and Persian scholars to the people settled on the River Sindhu. Some believe the name has a much older origin in the scriptures. Scholars often referred to this as the Brahmanical faith. Hindus called it "Vaideeha Dharma" or "Sanathana Dharma". Philosophers often do not want to refer to it as a mere religion, as that will narrow it down to a blind faith of prayers to God. It permits free thinking, questioning and reasoning. It allows both philosophy and rituals. It accepts even atheists and agnostics as it accepts various forms of worship.

" He (The Truth) who cannot even be heard of by many, whom many, even hearing, do not know, wondrous is he (the person) who can teach (The Truth) and skilful is he (the person) who finds (The Truth) and wondrous is he (the person) who knows, even when instructed otherwise. "

More bits follow that basic lesson, in an overview fashion:

http://www.bnaiyer.com/Hindu-Part-1/bas-01.html

[RandomGuy]

Essentials of Buddhism

Four Noble Truths

1. Suffering exists
2. Suffering arises from attachment to desires
3. Suffering ceases when attachment to desire ceases
4. Freedom from suffering is possible by practicing the Eightfold Path

Noble Eightfold Path


Three Qualities Eightfold Path
Wisdom (panna)
Right View Right Thought

Morality (sila)
Right Speech
Right Action
Right Livelihood

Meditation (samadhi)
Right Effort
Right Mindfulness
Right Contemplation

Three Characteristics of Existence

1. Transiency (anicca)
2. Sorrow (dukkha)
3. Selflessness (anatta)

Hindrances

1. Sensuous lust
2. Aversion and ill will
3. Sloth and torpor
4. Restlessness and worry
5. Sceptical doubt

Factors of Enlightenment

1. Mindfulness
2. Investigation
3. Energy
4. Rapture
5. Tranquillity
6. Concentration
7. Equanimity

http://www.buddhaweb.org/

Probably the most succinct of religions...

[FuzzyLumpkins]

As for not getting what you want from prayer christianity is not the way if you want that. Its been called a slave morality for very good reason. Everytime something good happens to you, you are supposed to give credit to the diety. Everytime something bad happens, you are supposed to admit that you are lesser and do not understand the mind of god and look for some benefit or lesson out of it. "The lord works in myserious ways' is the cliche. Its the behavior expected of a slavelike subordinate.

Personally, I find christianity to be untenable. Once I reject Jonah, Mishach, Shadrach and Abendego, Jesus and the pigs et al, I find it intellectually as well as morally bankrupt to pick and choose which tenants I like and those I do not. For example the Levites were wrong about pork and animal sacrifice supposedly yet they are quoted constantly when it concerns sexuality. To me you cannot have it both ways.

Now don't get me wrong. From an ethical standpoint what Jesus supposedly did was a pretty good. I think it wasn't in the best of taste when he starts his 'gnashing of teeth' angry rhetoric anytime someone doesn't listen to him but by and large his ethic is a good one. I find it unfortunate that he never got to write his kabala and instead John and Paul did.

Many tenants of what we attribute to christianty were not stated by christ or at least not quoted by him. John was the one that said god sacrificed him and its Paul over and over again doing his post tax career salesman job that comes up with things like the supremacy of the state in talking to the Romans. Later Byzantine emperors and murderous smallminded idiots like Cyril in the 5th century, tell us what the nature of God is and the Trinity as well as what books are acceptable to make up what is now known as the Bible. Heck even Augustine believed in the Olympic gods. Read it in City of God if you dont believe me.

At the end of the day though you are looking to others to find out what it is true and what is not when it comes to the spiritual. Thats not a good sign or at least a path you had best be careful. Learn yourself or be led by the nose.

[RandomGuy]

As for not getting what you want from prayer christianity is not the way if you want that. Its been called a slave morality for very good reason. Everytime something good happens to you, you are supposed to give credit to the diety. Everytime something bad happens, you are supposed to admit that you are lesser and do not understand the mind of god and look for some benefit or lesson out of it. "The lord works in myserious ways' is the cliche. Its the behavior expected of a slavelike subordinate.

Personally, I find christianity to be untenable. Once I reject Jonah, Mishach, Shadrach and Abendego, Jesus and the pigs et al, I find it intellectually as well as morally bankrupt to pick and choose which tenants I like and those I do not. For example the Levites were wrong about pork and animal sacrifice supposedly yet they are quoted constantly when it concerns sexuality. To me you cannot have it both ways.

Now don't get me wrong. From an ethical standpoint what Jesus supposedly did was a pretty good. I think it wasn't in the best of taste when he starts his 'gnashing of teeth' angry rhetoric anytime someone doesn't listen to him but by and large his ethic is a good one. I find it unfortunate that he never got to write his kabala and instead John and Paul did.

Many tenants of what we attribute to christianty were not stated by christ or at least not quoted by him. John was the one that said god sacrificed him and its Paul over and over again doing his post tax career salesman job that comes up with things like the supremacy of the state in talking to the Romans. Later Byzantine emperors and murderous smallminded idiots like Cyril in the 5th century, tell us what the nature of God is and the Trinity as well as what books are acceptable to make up what is now known as the Bible. Heck even Augustine believed in the Olympic gods. Read it in City of God if you dont believe me.

At the end of the day though you are looking to others to find out what it is true and what is not when it comes to the spiritual. Thats not a good sign or at least a path you had best be careful. Learn yourself or be led by the nose.

+1

I'm glad that I am not the only one who finds the Bible a bit incoherent in places.

Personally I find the whole religion thing to be a bit muddled. "Christian" encompasses Mormons, Catholics, Anglicans, Pentecostals, etc. (yeah, I know some don't consider others real "Christians"), so then one is left with which flavor to pick, even if one decides that one flavor is the right one.

The risk of being wrong, according to many religions, is somewhat unpleasant to put it mildly , so pick correctly...

[Jacob1983]

I'm not asking for a genie in a bottle or anything physical. I'm asking for something that I cannot touch, feel, or see. All I'm asking for is answers from God. If God has so much power then it shouldn't be a problem. I want a sign or something. I want to have a conversation with God in which he answers back to me. I don't see why that's so bad or wrong to ask for. It's not like I'm asking for a million dollars or world peace.

[RandomGuy]

I'm not asking for a genie in a bottle or anything physical. I'm asking for something that I cannot touch, feel, or see. All I'm asking for is answers from God. If God has so much power then it shouldn't be a problem. I want a sign or something. I want to have a conversation with God in which he answers back to me. I don't see why that's so bad or wrong to ask for. It's not like I'm asking for a million dollars or world peace.

Perhaps God is speaking to you through us.

I am reminded of the old joke about the guy who is trapped on his roof in a flood and prays to God to save him.

A dude in a boat comes by, but the guy on roof waves him off, saying "God will save me."

The water gets a bit higher, and another boat comes by... the guy on the roof waves that off, "God will save me."

The water gets to the lower part of the roof and a helicopter comes by... "no, god will save me."

The water washes away the house, the guy drowns, and his soul ends up at the pearly gates.

"St. Peter, why didn't God save me?"

" kid, we sent you two boats and a helicopter"

How do you know that we aren't the medium that God has chosen to answer you with?

Any being capable of creating a universe as massive as ours can surely trigger a few neurons in my brain to make me say/type things, and arrange for my lunch break to coincide with your question.

[Blake]

Why do you say this. It seems that there is free will in heaven.

Not really. If there is no sin in Heaven, then you are put in a place where the same free will you had on Earth has been taken away.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I'm not asking for a genie in a bottle or anything physical. I'm asking for something that I cannot touch, feel, or see. All I'm asking for is answers from God. If God has so much power then it shouldn't be a problem. I want a sign or something. I want to have a conversation with God in which he answers back to me. I don't see why that's so bad or wrong to ask for. It's not like I'm asking for a million dollars or world peace.

This raises a metaphysical question. Have you ever experienced anything that was not of the 5 senses?

Most everyone wants to commune with god. Its the very reason why religious ins utions get so much play. I personally have not met anyone who I believe truly has nor have I myself.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

Not really. If there is no sin in Heaven, then you are put in a place where the same free will you had on Earth has been taken away.

Logically this is BS. If Jesus was free of sin then by this argument he did not have free will. This is the slave morality I am talking about.

You are a bad person by your very nature and in order to achieve bliss you have to become that which you are not? Enjoy your self-loathing.

I always get a kick out of people saying they know the nature of hokey ass like heaven or the will of god.

[Drachen]

Not really. If there is no sin in Heaven, then you are put in a place where the same free will you had on Earth has been taken away.

Well how did lucifer get away with it? Because there is an example of it, I would say that there is free will in heaven, but there is no sin because everyone likes the place so much that they don't feel the need to sin.

[Summers]

Jacob, you've already made your decision but because of your family,social pressure from your circle of friends, and being brought up to fear and pity atheists, it's a hard thing to admit to yourself. Once you do, though, you won't have the angst that you do trying to believe in something that doesn't make sense to you.

[Blake]

Well how did lucifer get away with it? Because there is an example of it, I would say that there is free will in heaven, but there is no sin because everyone likes the place so much that they don't feel the need to sin.

Apparently Lucifer and 1/3 of the angels didn't like it so much.