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  1. #26
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    Don't feed the monkey...he'll only start flinging poo.

  2. #27
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    The faith-in-Bush crowd doesn't like dissent...


    John Farmer served as Senior Counsel to the 9/11 Commission, where his areas of responsibility included assessing the national response to the terrorist attacks and evaluating the current state of national preparedness for terrorist attacks and natural disasters, he also served as attorney general of New Jersey (1999-2002), as chief counsel to Governor Whitman, and as a federal prosecutor. He recently served as a subject matter/rule of law expert on security to the special envoy for Middle East regional security. He is currently a partner of a New Jersey law form and an adjunct professor of national security law at Rutgers University Law School. His editorials and articles have appeared in "The New York Times" and elsewhere
    So what did Farmer say about the 911 Commission?

    Description:

    As of the 9/11 Commission’s one of the primary authors report, John Farmer is proud of his and his colleagues’ work. Yet he came away from the experience convinced that there was a further story to be told, one he was uniquely qualified to write.

    Now that story can be told. Tape recordings, transcripts, and contemporaneous records that had been classified have since been declassified, and the inspector general’s investigations of government conduct have been completed. Drawing on his knowledge of those sources, as well as his years as an attorney in public and private practice, Farmer reconstructs the truth of what happened on that fateful day and the disastrous cir stances that allowed it: the ins utionalized disconnect between what those on the ground knew and what those in power did. He reveals — terrifyingly and illuminatingly — the key moments in the years, months, weeks, and days that preceded the attacks, then descends almost in real time through the attacks themselves, revealing them as they have never before been seen

    Ultimately Farmer builds the inescapably convincing case that the official version not only is almost entirely untrue but serves to create a false impression of order and security. The ground truth that Farmer captures tells a very different story — a story that is doomed to be repeated unless the systemic failures he reveals are confronted and remedied. .


    So let me just repeat that to let it sink in .... The official story is "almost entirely untrue." So what IS true? if I know.
    And check this out:

    Farmer himself states that "at some level of the government, at some point in time ... there was an agreement not to tell the truth about what happened."
    Link

  3. #28
    Keith Jackson mookie2001's Avatar
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    well naturally if one would read the report and then try to write a high school style outline book report of what was actually included, they would realize what a load of lord of the rings style bull was in the report

  4. #29
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    Even the 911 Commission didn't buy the bull they were selling the American public and referred the case to prosecutors...

    Some staff members and commissioners of the Sept. 11 panel concluded that the Pentagon's initial story of how it reacted to the 2001 terrorist attacks may have been part of a deliberate effort to mislead the commission and the public rather than a reflection of the fog of events on that day, according to sources involved in the debate.

    Su ion of wrongdoing ran so deep that the 10-member commission, in a secret meeting at the end of its tenure in summer 2004, debated referring the matter to the Justice Department for criminal investigation, according to several commission sources.
    Staff members and some commissioners thought that e-mails and other evidence provided enough probable cause to believe that military and aviation officials violated the law by making false statements to Congress and to the commission, hoping to hide the bungled response to the hijackings, these sources said.

    In the end, the panel agreed to a compromise, turning over the allegations to the inspectors general for the Defense and Transportation departments, who can make criminal referrals if they believe they are warranted, officials said.

    "We to this day don't know why NORAD [the North American Aerospace Command] told us what they told us," said Thomas H. Kean, the former New Jersey Republican governor who led the commission. "It was just so far from the truth. . . . It's one of those loose ends that never got tied."

    Although the commission's landmark report made it clear that the Defense Department's early versions of events on the day of the attacks were inaccurate, the revelation that it considered criminal referrals reveals how skeptically those reports were viewed by the panel and provides a glimpse of the tension between it and the Bush administration.
    Washington Post

  5. #30
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    We're now learning that a lot of what the 9/11 Commission was given as "factual intelligence" regarding al Qaeda's role in 9/11 was produced under torture. Everyone should be aware that the Commission began from the point of view that the most important "facts" were already known: That al Qaeda alone was responsible for 9/11. I've been saying for years that the Bush administration produced LESS evidence to substantiate that claim than they did to substantiate that Iraq had WMD, that they were an "immanent threat," and that they had ties with al Qaeda and, thus, 9/11 itself. We now know with certainty that they LIED about all of that and I keep asking people, why would you assume that they didn't lie about al Qaeda's role in 9/11?

    Mostly this question has been ignored and it is now time to bring it out into the light along with the torture issue. Those of us who have accepted the "truther" label and have been black balled as "tin foil hat wearing crazy conspiracy theorists" may have our differences of opinion, some may be truly "nutty" some may even be disinformation agents -- but those of us who are sincere in our concern have always been united about the need for ONE THING: A new, non-partisan, independent and transparent investigation with subpoena power. We have a lot of unanswered questions we'd like government officials to answer under oath. I'd personally like to know why the Bush administration fought against having any Commission at all. Why they underfunded it and gave it a set time limit. Why they placed Philip Zelikow as its executive director. Precisely what interaction Zelikow had with the White House, and specifically Karl Rove, during his tenure in that position. I'd like to know why Cheney and George W Bush refused to testify before the Commission separately and under oath. Why they only agreed to answer questions, not under oath, in private, with no notes taken or records kept. And all that is just the very thinnest sliver of the tip of the iceberg. There are many more questions that need to be asked regarding that tip of the iceberg that is above water but, below the surface of the water, that is, deep in the bowls of the national security state infrastructure, there are far more questions. The victim families of 9/11 deserve answers, the American people deserve answers, the people of Afghanistan and Iraq deserve answers. For FAR too long we have allowed radical changes in our domestic and foreign policy be predicated upon an seminal event about which we were not told the truth. We need to know how much of it is true and how much of it is not. IF the events of 9/11 were aided and abetted in any way by yet to be identified forces within the national security state apparatus, those responsible are, at the very least, accessories to mass murder, treason, war crimes, crimes against humanity and a cover-up so thorough that it has continued to the present.

    The reason why this is important and the reason why I and many, many others have been "down the conspiracy rabbit hole" for all these years is because we believe that without a clear answer to this question, none of us will be safe. At BASE this is a national security issue, one which dares to ask the question: Does the national security infrastructure currently in place protect the American people, or does it protect private interests within the Military Industrial Complex at the expenses of public interest and security? Does it use the cloak of "national security" to hide its actual purpose? Given the TRILLIONS of dollars that have gone into the so called "war on terror," money that has been reallocated from one sector of the economy into the hands of a military/industrial/oil elite -- given that the government has used 9/11 to ascribe greater power than ever to surveil the public and put in place policies which threaten our civil liberties -- given the thousands of US military personnel that have been killed, wounded and traumatized by a two-front war in admittedly PETROLEUM RICH regions of the planet -- given that untold hundreds of thousands of Afghani and Iraqi citizens have been slaughtered -- given that prisoners have been rendered, tortured, held without any jurisprudence -- isn't it LONG past time we had clear honest answers regarding the events of that day? Personally, I'm all for having a REAL "war on terror" -- and by that I mean shining a light on the deep state, its ties to the military industrial complex, government and military intelligence, corporate interests (especially oil and Wall Street banking interests) and that underbelly of global capital, international criminal syndicates that trade in armaments, drugs, pros ution and bloody terror.

    It is LONG past time to take the gag off Sibel Edmonds for one. But, again, that is just the tip of the tip of the iceberg.

  6. #31
    Keith Jackson mookie2001's Avatar
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    I'd like to know why Cheney and George W Bush refused to testify before the Commission separately and under oath. Why they only agreed to answer questions, not under oath, in private, with no notes taken or records kept.
    exactly

    but i'll be told they were inept and too stupid to do anything... ever, even though they never have to go on record so we'll never find out

    people will quote southpark, google image search tinfoil

    round and round we'll go until 9-11 is like the 64 gulf of tonkin incident, where the small % of people who even know what the the real questions are- think its an old man book conspiracy

    and chumpdumpers response is to ask US questions, like there arent enough questions to go around

  7. #32
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    It's still a mystery why NORAD and the FAA lied to the 911 Commission

    For more than two years after the attacks, officials with NORAD and the FAA provided inaccurate information about the response to the hijackings in testimony and media appearances. Authorities suggested that U.S. air defenses had reacted quickly, that jets had been scrambled in response to the last two hijackings and that fighters were prepared to shoot down United Airlines Flight 93 if it threatened Washington.

    In fact, the commission reported a year later, audiotapes from NORAD's Northeast headquarters and other evidence showed clearly that the military never had any of the hijacked airliners in its sights and at one point chased a phantom aircraft -- American Airlines Flight 11 -- long after it had crashed into the World Trade Center.

    Maj. Gen. Larry Arnold and Col. Alan Scott told the commission that NORAD had begun tracking United 93 at 9:16 a.m., but the commission determined that the airliner was not hijacked until 12 minutes later. The military was not aware of the flight until after it had crashed in Pennsylvania.

    These and other discrepancies did not become clear until the commission, forced to use subpoenas, obtained audiotapes from the FAA and NORAD, officials said. The agencies' reluctance to release the tapes -- along with e-mails, erroneous public statements and other evidence -- led some of the panel's staff members and commissioners to believe that authorities sought to mislead the commission and the public about what happened on Sept. 11.
    LInk

    ..Gulf of Tonkin, Lusitania, Mexican-American War, the list goes on and on...

    By now we're near experts at concealing the fact that our -ups, failures, and malevolent factionalism are the cause of a majority of conflicts.

    Just saying, let the historical record show that if 9/11 went off exactly as the Commission reports, it would be the first historical example of a foreign war where the U.S. did not incite or start hostilities and conceal the truth from the polity.

    Like I said earlier, I don't know what the whole truth is, but what I do know is that what has been labeled the truth is far from it...

  8. #33
    Believe.
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    Many in here not only don't want the truth they run from it.

  9. #34
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    Many in here not only don't want the truth they run from it.
    I think its a mental illness really....

  10. #35
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    What are you doing to make your desire for this new investigation a reality?

  11. #36
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    Why is it up to me?

  12. #37
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Why is it up to me?
    Must not be that important to you.

  13. #38
    Pimp Marcus Bryant's Avatar
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    Hysterical Conspiracism. What begins in a tradition of healthy skepticism culminates in a universal su ion of anything presented as established wisdom. As Francis Wheen puts it in his recent book, Strange Days Indeed: The 1970s: The Golden Age of Paranoia, “You start by reading your horoscope in the newspaper; then you dabble in chakra balancing or feng shui, saying that it is important to keep an open mind; after a while your mind is so open that your brains fall out, and you read the Protocols of the Elders of Zion without noticing anything amiss.”

    No graduate of the Anglo-American university system in the past 60 years has lacked for an introduction to this pervasive theorizing of dark and hidden forces, which gallops across the political spectrum from right-wing fantasies about Freemasons to left-wing hysteria over the Warren Report.

    The Jewish question, as Wheen rightly apprehended, seems to exercise over-active imaginations more than anything else. In the wake of the killing of Hamas militant Mahmoud al-Mabhouh in Dubai, the BBC Radio 4's PM program allowed one Gordon Thomas, author of Gideon's Spies, a book about the Israeli intelligence agency Mossad, to state the following: “They have a whole backup system called 'asylum.' These are people, local residents, Jewish people, who help the Mossad. It is estimated to be in the world about half a million—some people say a million; I tend to say it's about half a million—all of them Mossad people.” Avoid all open windows at your next bar mitzvah.

    The strategic advantages of the hysterical conspiracist are as follows:

    1. He never risks appearing ovine or “naďve” because he is perpetually attuned to What Is Really Happening. What others might describe as pigheaded resistance to facts, he maintains as his unsullied record of un-falsifiable claims. As Johnson remarked to Boswell over dinner at the Mitre, “It is always easy to be on the negative side… If a man were now to deny that there is salt upon the table, you could not reduce him to absurdity.” Trying to convince someone who insists that a plane did not fly into the Pentagon on September 11 is no easier.

    2. Where he does advance an “alternative” explanation of events, the hysterical conspiracist usually maintains a small distance from absolute certainty—just in case. Hedge phrases or coy locutions such as “I’m not saying necessarily…” and “Isn’t it interesting that…” exist to exonerate the conspiracist after the fact, preparing him for intellectual victory either way. Witness the qualifiers in this sample sentence from Tariq Ali’s The Clash of Fundamentalisms: “[T]here exists no exact, incontrovertible evidence about who ordered the hits on New York and Washington or when the plan was first mooted.”

    3. The hysterical conspiracist forces his opponents to fritter away their time and resources in debunking his non-theories as “not even wrong.” Popular Mechanics might have devoted a cover story to flying cars or Fermilab cyclotrons in March 2005. Instead it had to teach Rosie O’Donnell how steel girders melt in skyscrapers.
    Reason

  14. #39
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Even the 911 Commission didn't buy the bull they were selling the American public and referred the case to prosecutors...

    Staff members and some commissioners thought that e-mails and other evidence provided enough probable cause to believe that military and aviation officials violated the law by making false statements to Congress and to the commission, hoping to hide the bungled response to the hijackings, these sources said.


    Washington Post
    Amazing to see what parts you choose to highlight, and the parts you didn't...

    People covering their asses, lying about how they messed up.

    BFD.

    That would be about what one would expect, but is hardly the proof of "an inside job".

    Looking at life through conspiracy-colored glasses forces one to see plots everywhere.

    Should SOMEONE have been held accountable? Possibly.

    Did a few people actively lie to investigators looking into the horrific events and try to make themselves look as blameless as possible? You bet.

    Did the 9-11 commission have any reason whatsoever to think that parts of the government were "in on it?" No.

    To think otherwise is to put something into the evidence that just isn't there.

  15. #40
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    We're now learning that a lot of what the 9/11 Commission was given as "factual intelligence" regarding al Qaeda's role in 9/11 was produced under torture. Everyone should be aware that the Commission began from the point of view that the most important "facts" were already known: That al Qaeda alone was responsible for 9/11. I've been saying for years that the Bush administration produced LESS evidence to substantiate that claim than they did to substantiate that Iraq had WMD, that they were an "immanent threat," and that they had ties with al Qaeda and, thus, 9/11 itself. We now know with certainty that they LIED about all of that and I keep asking people, why would you assume that they didn't lie about al Qaeda's role in 9/11?

    Mostly this question has been ignored and it is now time to bring it out into the light along with the torture issue. Those of us who have accepted the "truther" label and have been black balled as "tin foil hat wearing crazy conspiracy theorists" may have our differences of opinion, some may be truly "nutty" some may even be disinformation agents -- but those of us who are sincere in our concern have always been united about the need for ONE THING: A new, non-partisan, independent and transparent investigation with subpoena power. We have a lot of unanswered questions we'd like government officials to answer under oath. I'd personally like to know why the Bush administration fought against having any Commission at all. Why they underfunded it and gave it a set time limit. Why they placed Philip Zelikow as its executive director. Precisely what interaction Zelikow had with the White House, and specifically Karl Rove, during his tenure in that position. I'd like to know why Cheney and George W Bush refused to testify before the Commission separately and under oath. Why they only agreed to answer questions, not under oath, in private, with no notes taken or records kept. And all that is just the very thinnest sliver of the tip of the iceberg. There are many more questions that need to be asked regarding that tip of the iceberg that is above water but, below the surface of the water, that is, deep in the bowls of the national security state infrastructure, there are far more questions. The victim families of 9/11 deserve answers, the American people deserve answers, the people of Afghanistan and Iraq deserve answers. For FAR too long we have allowed radical changes in our domestic and foreign policy be predicated upon an seminal event about which we were not told the truth. We need to know how much of it is true and how much of it is not. IF the events of 9/11 were aided and abetted in any way by yet to be identified forces within the national security state apparatus, those responsible are, at the very least, accessories to mass murder, treason, war crimes, crimes against humanity and a cover-up so thorough that it has continued to the present.

    The reason why this is important and the reason why I and many, many others have been "down the conspiracy rabbit hole" for all these years is because we believe that without a clear answer to this question, none of us will be safe. At BASE this is a national security issue, one which dares to ask the question: Does the national security infrastructure currently in place protect the American people, or does it protect private interests within the Military Industrial Complex at the expenses of public interest and security? Does it use the cloak of "national security" to hide its actual purpose? Given the TRILLIONS of dollars that have gone into the so called "war on terror," money that has been reallocated from one sector of the economy into the hands of a military/industrial/oil elite -- given that the government has used 9/11 to ascribe greater power than ever to surveil the public and put in place policies which threaten our civil liberties -- given the thousands of US military personnel that have been killed, wounded and traumatized by a two-front war in admittedly PETROLEUM RICH regions of the planet -- given that untold hundreds of thousands of Afghani and Iraqi citizens have been slaughtered -- given that prisoners have been rendered, tortured, held without any jurisprudence -- isn't it LONG past time we had clear honest answers regarding the events of that day? Personally, I'm all for having a REAL "war on terror" -- and by that I mean shining a light on the deep state, its ties to the military industrial complex, government and military intelligence, corporate interests (especially oil and Wall Street banking interests) and that underbelly of global capital, international criminal syndicates that trade in armaments, drugs, pros ution and bloody terror.

    It is LONG past time to take the gag off Sibel Edmonds for one. But, again, that is just the tip of the tip of the iceberg.
    http://journals.democraticunderground.com/beam_me_up/26

    Would it kill you to source some of this stuff?

    That is a fairly reasonable essay.

    BUT

    I don't see how it would change much, other than show how truly clueless Bush was and how ish Cheney was.

    Al-Qaeda attacked the twin towers with bombs, failed to destroy the buildings then worked up another plan and tried again in a ers before we really all became fully aware of the threat posed.

    I don't see what "answers" would be had that would mean more than a squirt of piss into a pool.

  16. #41
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    I would understand if the DoD and FAA lied, but assume it's because they screwed up, not to some overriding conspiracy.

    Frankly, I don't think Bush and Co. are intelligent enough to pull that off.

    Oh, Bush and ESPECIALLY Cheney never said ANYTHING on the record, if they could help it.

  17. #42
    Believe. Debbie Downer's Avatar
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    Looks like a sad day for RandomLie and Chump as they know the truth is coming out now.

  18. #43
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Looks like a sad day for RandomLie and Chump as they know the truth is coming out now.


    Yes, you guys are working so hard to start that new investigation.

  19. #44
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    I would understand if the DoD and FAA lied, but assume it's because they screwed up, not to some overriding conspiracy.

    Frankly, I don't think Bush and Co. are intelligent enough to pull that off.

    Oh, Bush and ESPECIALLY Cheney never said ANYTHING on the record, if they could help it.
    Could very well be....but I guess the question that begs to be asked is if it was just a colossal screw-up by the FAA, NORAD, on down the line... was it negligent ? and if it was negligent, was it criminal?

    ..and if it was criminal, was it a conspiracy? See how it can quickly spiral....

  20. #45
    W4A1 143 43CK? Nbadan's Avatar
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    Looks like a sad day for RandomLie and Chump as they know the truth is coming out now.
    Random-Chump have had better days....but the ball is still clearly in their court, but in time who knows? The Kennedy Assassination swung, perhaps some day 9/11 will swing too.....in the meantime focusing on WTC1 and WTC2 is a waste of time...if anything, focusing on WTC7, Huff Aviation and the Pakistani connection/terrorists connection is time better spent..

  21. #46
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Random-Chump have had better days....but the ball is still clearly in their court, but in time who knows?
    Why is the ball in our court?

    You have yet to present any possible credible theory. Indeed, no theory at all.
    The Kennedy Assassination swung
    Swung to what? A cottage industry of nutters and a bad feature film?

    perhaps some day 9/11 will swing too.....
    Yes, with real men of action like you and mouse, I really see things happening in the truther movement in the future
    in the meantime focusing on WTC1 and WTC2 is a waste of time...if anything, focusing on WTC7, Huff Aviation and the Pakistani connection/terrorists connection is time better spent..
    Tell us your theory involving WTC7, Huff Aviation and the Pakistani connection/terrorists.

    Let the world hear what you think really happened on 9/11.

    It's been almost nine years. What are you waiting for?

  22. #47
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    I can see the spiral, but nutter theories are zombie turds. Now and then they return to forage for human brains, apparently.

  23. #48
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    I can see the spiral, but nutter theories are zombie turds. Now and then they return to forage for human brains, apparently.
    But that's just it -- they have no theories.

    Not one.

    Just bad YouTubes with spooky synth music.

    After eight years, you'd think there would be at least one.

  24. #49
    right about pizzagate Blake's Avatar
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    The faith-in-Bush crowd doesn't like dissent...




    So what did Farmer say about the 911 Commission?

    Description:

    As of the 9/11 Commission’s one of the primary authors report, John Farmer is proud of his and his colleagues’ work. Yet he came away from the experience convinced that there was a further story to be told, one he was uniquely qualified to write.

    Now that story can be told. Tape recordings, transcripts, and contemporaneous records that had been classified have since been declassified, and the inspector general’s investigations of government conduct have been completed. Drawing on his knowledge of those sources, as well as his years as an attorney in public and private practice, Farmer reconstructs the truth of what happened on that fateful day and the disastrous cir stances that allowed it: the ins utionalized disconnect between what those on the ground knew and what those in power did. He reveals — terrifyingly and illuminatingly — the key moments in the years, months, weeks, and days that preceded the attacks, then descends almost in real time through the attacks themselves, revealing them as they have never before been seen

    Ultimately Farmer builds the inescapably convincing case that the official version not only is almost entirely untrue but serves to create a false impression of order and security. The ground truth that Farmer captures tells a very different story — a story that is doomed to be repeated unless the systemic failures he reveals are confronted and remedied. .




    And check this out:



    Link
    the link is no good.

    how much does Farmer's book cost?

  25. #50
    Independent DMX7's Avatar
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    I love the way the left-leaning media are presuming to know this nut's politics...it's as if they're developing some narrative.

    www.csmonitor.com/USA/2010/0305/John-Patrick-Bedell-Did-right-wing-extremism-lead-to-shooting


    Truther and Registered Democrat...yep, I'd say the CSM had him pegged, eh?
    lol

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