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  1. #51
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Military bases abroad are a tacit admission that we simply do not trust who we call our allies. And I completely agree that the military complex is and has been always ripe for corruption. And it's not just contractors. Who can forget the bricks of money that flew into Iraq with basically no accounting whatsoever?

    Nat sec has turned into just another excuse where money goes into a black hole. Much like 'protect the children' or 'the war on drugs'...

  2. #52
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    Since you're in on the question DR, what do you think would be acceptable? Bases in a few foriegn areas? None at all?

    How about acceptable response time? If, say, North Korea decides to attack us, should we have bases to supply and refuel along the way? Or should we just try to garner allies and request usage of their resources?
    Hmmm, interesting question...a valid one, too.

    Two ways of answering, long or short. I usually prefer short and end up being long...

    I dont want to pigeon hole your argument to just North Korea, as I am sure youre just using it as a (good) example.

    So I'll pretend instead that there is an external threat from any and all countries.

    In my mind, the American military's sole purpose is defense of the homeland. Not spreading democracy, protecting American interests abroad or assisting our handicapped "allies" up the staircase of foreign relations.

    In the make-believe world I just created (because it will never happen), there are no international treaties like NATO. We absolve ourselves of the World Police responsibility and leave it (in its entirety) to the broken, defunct organizations like the UN. Let the bluehats figure out whats best for Europe, less involved we are, the better.

    The UN is no tool of the United States. Yes, it absolutely caves to the demands of the USA, but thats only because we basically finance it at this moment. We'd still keep our veto vote, just as Russia and China keep theirs right now even though they dont do -on-a-stick with the UN.

    We pull our financing in totality and overnight the UN becomes what it has always been...Europe's first foray into unilateral, continental decision-making.

    We Americans do not have Europe's inherent disadvantages in that regard. We havent had a continental equal since... ...I really cant name a time. Whereas Europe is literally brimming with equals at every border (at varying times...Germany, France, Italy, Spain, Britain, Sweden, Austria, Denmark, etc), all vying for the same resources, all distrustful of the other, all looking to advance beyond reproach, but sadly unable.

    The US? Been there, did that. Came to preeminence quickly by any historical standard (if not the quickest). That mostly had to do with geography and origination...this has gone way off track...let me get back to point.

    Ahem (short, my ass).

    How many military bases/logistical locations should the US keep in an attempt to be able to resoind to global threats?

    None. Zero.

    I dont care that most of our bases are wanted by the natives. Wouldnt you, too? If your broke-ass, pre-20th century hole of a nation was offered protectorate status to the most powerful nation to ever walk the planet at the minimal cost of resource and real estate, you'd be a fool to say no.

    Which is why every "little guy" says yes to someone. Most of the time, the offer is accepted from the USA...other times in the past, the Soviet Union...but now, its exclusively the United States making and taking offers.

    In the event that some dumbass country gets a wild hair up their ass to attack for whatever reason, we would just go to war with our checkbooks instead of an IOU list.

    We'd pay (or conquer if need be) all the way to the enemy, making it expensive, risky and dangerous.

    Which is exactly what war should be for Americans. When our nation is mobilized, it should take War Bonds to pay for it. Which means the entire country would have to be behind it, which means war would become a necessity, not a luxury.

    Say what you will about WW2, Pearl Harbor, etc. Details are distracting at times. Bottom line: it was a war the American people believed in with every fiber of their flags. War Bonds sold like hotcakes. Some Americans were cutting into their food supplies to help the effort. A volunteer army of nearly one million sprang up literally overnight, recruiter centers around the country were overwhelmed.

    Does it make WW2 more glamorous? No, it does not. But it does make it more justifiable when every American (ok 98%) were contributing directly to the war effort, at home and abroad.

    What about Iraq? Afghanistan? Vietnam? Korea? Do you believe the American people would have so quickly done the same? I do not...and for good reason.

    $1 trillion dollars is absolutely too much. How much was our GDP last year? Like $13 trillion, or something? That means $0.077 of every gross dollar made in this country was being spent on our military.

    Too much. Too much, too much, too much. An outside threat, even under my scenario, stands no chance against us. None. They could never conquer, the could never hold territory, they could only strike, never kill.

    And if its a war of "Who can hit the hardest the fastest", then they admitted defeat before they declared war. All the same, history will remember them with the Ottomans, Persia and the Soviet Union.

  3. #53
    Believe. admiralsnackbar's Avatar
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    The Newsweek story might indeed be premature

  4. #54
    Pimp Marcus Bryant's Avatar
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    The weird thing is that the qualities of war that necessitate national level industrial planning and rally citizens towards greater centralization of political power were attractive to some rather high profile progressives in the early 20th C. "Conservatives" now embrace that wholeheartedly. Even Beck has managed to figure that out.

  5. #55
    Pimp Marcus Bryant's Avatar
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    IF those countries want our bases there, then i don't see why the "F" we care.
    Yeah, it's not like we have to pay taxes to maintain it or service the debt that paid for it.

  6. #56
    Rising above the Fray spursncowboys's Avatar
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    why did we invade iraq? They were distributing wealth more equal under saddam. That should be our goal in Iraq. Humans guaranteed the right to vote is a bumper sticker for red necks.

  7. #57
    Believe. admiralsnackbar's Avatar
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    What is that... libel?

  8. #58
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    It's how SnC got his start way back in the day. Think droll. Think impersonation.

    As in, SnC's impersonation of admiralsnackbar failed at delivery.

  9. #59
    Rising above the Fray spursncowboys's Avatar
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    way to maintain the high standards WH. Good to know if my writing style ever needed to be summed up short, with a personal spin, I can count on you.
    Glad to see you hold Admiral's feet to your fire.

  10. #60
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Glad to see you hold Admiral's feet to your fire.
    About what? I'm not the one who has a beef with him.

  11. #61
    Rising above the Fray spursncowboys's Avatar
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    The Newsweek story might indeed be premature
    let me help you out.

    The Newsweek story might indeed be premature

  12. #62
    Rising above the Fray spursncowboys's Avatar
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    copy and paste under the influence should be a crime
    except there would be no liberal nonsense on the forum if that were the case.

  13. #63
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    You seem to see that as a waiver for the stupidity of Goldman's lame conceit that Iraq is a success and Republican policies laid the foundation for stability and progress. I don't.

    Vive la difference.

  14. #64
    Rising above the Fray spursncowboys's Avatar
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    So the day the Iraqi people went to the streets to elect their leaders, you say saddam should still be in office with the world under the premise that he still has wmds. He would probably be at over 20 violated un resolutions.
    here is a comment in an economist op ed http://www.economist.com/node/15606203/comments that I thought were pretty good.

    vpemmer wrote:
    Mar 8th 2010 4:51 GMT


    I am appalled, but not surprised at the vitriol heaped on the West and the Iraqi people's work in wresting that country from first a particularly heinous and aggressive dictator and then from a savage cult straight from the middle ages.

    To leave Irag in the hands of Sadaam and Sons would have been unforgiveable given the threat he posed to his own population, his neighbors, the integrity of the UN, and the security and prosperity of the advanced economies.

    I respectfully submit that the people who are overflowing with recrimination concerning the West in Iraq now would be crying about the West's indifference to oppressed peoples, lamenting the West's crisis of confidence, and accusing it of a lack of backbone had it done nothing.

    Further, I'll suggest that it is the prevalence of this Western self-recrimination that gives Ahmadinejad his careless courage.
    Shamal Karim wrote:
    Mar 5th 2010 2:27 GMT


    I recently read that the IWW was cruel and unnecessary. The American Civil War was also certainly cruel but it was not unnecessary. While the casulties in Iraq pale in comparison the dark and dire age that was inflicted on the Iraqi people for decades by Saddam and his clan could only be resolved for Iraqis by some profound shift of energy. It could only be removed by voilent means unfortunately, as Hitler had to be. That change could only be brought about by the might of America and its allies. Iraq is seeing a new dawn. It will take time but we shall overcome.

  15. #65
    Pimp Marcus Bryant's Avatar
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    Why exactly are we bringing in comments from other forums? That's rather weak sauce.

    As for the Civil War, are we sure it was "not unnecessary"? Yes, that's standard textbook American history, but was it really a given that the ins ution of slavery would have continued indefinitely, or that the union could not have reunified at some point later? Not to mention that perhaps it was avoidable altogether with an eventual end to slavery...

  16. #66
    Pimp Marcus Bryant's Avatar
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    Further, in the over 150+ nations on the Earth, there are quite a few candidates for "spreading democracy" and removing asshole dictators. When does the US military take them out, or is that just a weak justification for an ill-thought out war because someone tried to kill W's daddy?

  17. #67
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    So the day the Iraqi people went to the streets to elect their leaders, you say saddam should still be in office with the world under the premise that he still has wmds.
    I did not say that. Who did?

    He would probably be at over 20 violated UN resolutions.
    Of course. The UN. We had their back, right?

  18. #68
    Live by what you Speak. DarkReign's Avatar
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    Further, in the over 150+ nations on the Earth, there are quite a few candidates for "spreading democracy" and removing asshole dictators. When does the US military take them out, or is that just a weak justification for an ill-thought out war because someone tried to kill W's daddy?
    I'll bite.

    A vast majority of those nations who need some democracy spreadin' dont sit on a wealth of natural resource. A majority of those nations only have human resource, which isnt nearly as valuable.

  19. #69
    Rising above the Fray spursncowboys's Avatar
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    I did not say that. Who did?
    sorry that was a question.

    Of course. The UN. We had their back, right?
    Now there is something to look at when it comes down to cutting spending.

  20. #70
    Rising above the Fray spursncowboys's Avatar
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    Why exactly are we bringing in comments from other forums? That's rather weak sauce.

    As for the Civil War, are we sure it was "not unnecessary"? Yes, that's standard textbook American history, but was it really a given that the ins ution of slavery would have continued indefinitely, or that the union could not have reunified at some point later? Not to mention that perhaps it was avoidable altogether with an eventual end to slavery...
    they were comments from the link I posted. I agree in the fact that to the north it was avoidable. However to the south i think that would have happened sooner or later.

  21. #71
    Believe. admiralsnackbar's Avatar
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    copy and paste under the influence should be a crime
    except there would be no liberal nonsense on the forum if that were the case.
    I'm sober, remarkably. At least for the time being.

    Looking past the allegation that you might be calling me a liberal (them's fightin' words, son!) are you implying that your defining characteristic of copy-pasting articles (in what I can only assume is a state of mind in which your precious bodily fluids are unsullied by alcohol) free of commentary is somehow a mark of your clear-eyed conservatism? That's awesome.

    Anyway, apologies for any bunched panties about quoting the article you posted and being too lazy to tag it to your satisfaction.

  22. #72
    Rising above the Fray spursncowboys's Avatar
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    I'm sober, remarkably. At least for the time being.

    Looking past the allegation that you might be calling me a liberal (them's fightin' words, son!) are you implying that your defining characteristic of copy-pasting articles (in what I can only assume is a state of mind in which your precious bodily fluids are unsullied by alcohol) free of commentary is somehow a mark of your clear-eyed conservatism? That's awesome.

    Anyway, apologies for any bunched panties about quoting the article you posted and being too lazy to tag it to your satisfaction.
    I really thought you were misquoting me, not realizing it was the op. thanks for worring about my panties. sorry bout the lib quote
    if you need help getting sand out of your vagina, let me know. I got a way that worked for me.

  23. #73
    Believe. admiralsnackbar's Avatar
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    I really thought you were misquoting me, not realizing it was the op. thanks for worring about my panties. sorry bout the lib quote
    if you need help getting sand out of your vagina, let me know. I got a way that worked for me.
    It's all good: I gots me one of those hand-held massaging shower heads

  24. #74
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Enough towel-popping already. This is like, the second thread today that ended up *hitting the showers*.

  25. #75
    I don't really care... Yonivore's Avatar
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    Enough towel-popping already. This is like, the second thread today that ended up *hitting the showers*.
    Showers? Towel Popping?


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