Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 72
  1. #1
    adolis is altuve’s father monosylab1k's Avatar
    My Team
    Dallas Mavericks
    Post Count
    15,826
    can anyone post it?

    I'm sure he found some formula to put 8 different members of the Utah Jazz into his top 10, along with figuring out how point differential somehow makes Dirk the most overrated shooter ever.

  2. #2
    Veteran
    My Team
    Boston Celtics
    Post Count
    4,675
    Greatest shooters ever
    PER Diem: March 9, 2010

    John Hollinger
    ESPN.com


    Steve Nash may be known more for his passing skills, but his shooting ability ain't too shabby either.

    You'll often hear casual basketball fans lament the lack of shooting in today's game, especially from the free throw line. But actually, we have the opposite problem: The current NBA is littered with great shooters. In fact, several of the best shooters of all time are currently on NBA rosters, and most of them are more or less in their prime.

    Without leaving the top half of the Western Conference standings, for instance, I can point out names like Steve Nash, Dirk Nowitzki, Peja Stojakovic, Kevin Martin and Chauncey Billups, all of whom have put together multiple seasons that rank among the best shooting performances in history. That's to say nothing of the other great shooters in the league -- Ray Allen, Jason Kapono, free throw-record holder Jose Calderon, Ben Gordon, Kyle Korver … the list goes on and on.

    But which one is the best of the best? Aye, there's the rub. We've never had a clear metric for ranking the game's best shooters … well, at least until today's ill-advised endeavor. That's right -- we're going to try ranking the best shooters in the game's history.

    First, a caveat: By "history," we're limiting ourselves to the 3-point era. There were plenty of great shooters who played prior to that point, but we have no way to verify their cases statistically. In particular, it appears Calvin Murphy and Rick Barry -- two players from the 1970s who were renowned for their shooting range and rank among the top six free throw shooters of all time -- are slighted by today's methodology. Bill Sharman, Mike Newlin and Fred Brown also get my apologies.

    OK, now for the method. My first step is to require players pass through a couple of fairly low "gates:" shooting 85 percent from the line with at least a 45 percent mark on 3s, or shooting 87.5 percent from the line with at least 42.5 percent made on 3s, or shooting 90 percent from the stripe with at least 40 percent made on 3s.

    The point at this stage isn't to determine the best shooter of all time but to eliminate all the players we know darn well aren't the best shooter of all time. This does an efficient job, narrowing our list to 44 players.

    From there, I set about creating a formula to rank the best shooters. I thought I'd have to dream up something very complex to adjust for all the variables involved, but it turned out a simple formula worked far better than any of my more exotic concoctions. I simply added a player's 2-point, 3-point and free throw percentages. We'll call this "Combined Shooting Rating," or CSR for short.

    CSR works for a few reasons. First, the free throw is a pretty fair arbiter of shooting ability. It's the only true apples-to-apples measurement we have, because it's always 15 feet from the hoop and unguarded, regardless of what system the team runs or how the player is used. It's only one shot among many that need to be in a player's arsenal, but it's an important one.

    Second, the yin and yang of 2-point and 3-point ability balance each other out. Some players are more effective midrange shooters than long-range marksmen, while others are more comfortable bombing away. And using this method makes the system more fair to players from the 1980s and early '90s, when teams didn't utilize the 3 as often or as effectively.

    The one thing I left out was frequency. Obviously, players who pick their spots get higher-percentage looks than those who are the focal point of the offense on play after play. On the other hand, it's extremely difficult for players in the former group to shoot well enough from the line to crack the elite on this list, simply because of the lack of in-game repe ion. Several snipers with great numbers from the floor (Brent Barry, for instance, or Hubert Davis) couldn't get into the top 10 because of free throw percentage, and even the second-ranked player on our list (one of the all-time snipers) has the worst free throw percentage of anybody in the top 10.

    Also, I did set two minimum standards: 10,000 career minutes and 250 made 3-pointers. I didn't want anybody getting onto the list with a lengthy career sparsely populated with 3-point attempts; that seemed counter to the point of the exercise. While arbitrary, 250 nicely separated the truly deadly long-range shooters from the guys who merely hit midrange J's and made their free throws.

    So now that our rather simple CSR method is clear, let's get to our list of the top 10 shooters, which also apparently doubles as a great predictor of post-career broadcasting, coaching and front-office opportunities. According to CSR, they are:

    Top All-Time Shooters By CSR
    Player 2-Pt% 3-Pt% FT% CSR
    Steve Nash .515 .431 .903 1.849
    Steve Kerr .494 .454 .864 1.812
    Reggie Miller .525 .395 .888 1.807
    Mark Price .501 .402 .904 1.807
    Jeff Hornacek .515 .403 .877 1.795
    Chris Mullin .533 .384 .865 1.783
    Peja Stojakovic .485 .400 .895 1.779
    Larry Bird .509 .376 .886 1.770
    Ray Allen .482 .396 .893 1.770
    Dana Barros .488 .411 .858 1.757
    Min. 10,000 career minutes

    That's right: Steve Nash. By a mile.

    I've always written that his shooting is his most underappreciated skill, but even so, this blows me away.

    It makes sense, though -- run through the numbers, and Nash crushes every possible compe or. And it becomes even more impressive when one considers nearly all his shots from the field have come off the dribble. Nash and the fourth-ranked player on this list, Mark Price, are the only two players in history to shoot better than 50 percent on 2s, 40 percent on 3s and 90 percent from the line for their careers. And as it happens, Nash's general manager in Phoenix, Steve Kerr, is second on the list.

    One strong point of this list is that it acknowledges a few of the game's great midrange shooters. Neither Chris Mullin nor Jeff Hornacek shot the 3 with great frequency, for instance, but both were deadly accurate when they did, and they were exceptional from 2-point range.

    Fans of "Larry Legend" undoubtedly will be disappointed to see him ninth on this list and to see one player of his own size -- Stojakovic -- rank just ahead of him. But Bird's greatest asset was his ability to make high-difficulty shots, which would need to be part of a different list entirely -- a list that would include different players. (Kobe Bryant, for one obvious example, is nowhere close on the above list but would have to rank high on any list of tough-shot makers.)

    If you're wondering about Nowitzki, he is 13th, and easily the best among players 6-foot-10 or taller. Players 11 to 20 on this list are Barry, Hersey Hawkins, Nowitzki, Davis, Korver, Mo Williams, Danny Ainge, Allan Houston, Scott Skiles and Glen Rice.

    Before I exit, some players who didn't make my list warrant mentioning.

    The first is Drazen Petrovic, who just missed my minutes cut-off because of his untimely death in 1993. Petro's rating of 1.799 would have put him fifth on the list, a fact that becomes even more impressive when one considers he was only 28 when he died -- most players improve their numbers on the above criteria well into their 30s.

    The second is Calderon, who needs only 779 more minutes to crack the list; his 1.805 career mark would place him fifth. Calderon also has only 238 made 3s on his career and needs to make 12 more of those. You might think his free throw percentage carries him into the top 10, but actually it's his amazing 2-point field goal percentage that does it. Calderon has shot 53.4 percent for his career on 2-point shots, the best mark of any of the 44 players in this study.

    Finally, two young players on the Golden State Warriors have established a great chance of finishing their careers near the top of this list. Rookie Stephen Curry is at 1.770 thus far in his brief career, and should that number hold up, he'll finish his career in the top 10. Since players' shooting often improves dramatically in their second through fifth seasons, he could finish as one of the top-ranked players of all time.

    Then again, he also might finish second among current Warriors. Curry's teammate, Anthony Morrow, has played two NBA seasons as a part-time starter, and posted career marks of 48.8 percent on 2s, 45.9 percent on 3s and 87.6 percent from the line. That's good for a CSR of 1.822, which is better than every other player in history except Nash.

    Obviously we're dealing with smaller sample sizes with those two, and it's possible they'll regress in future seasons. But when we discuss the great all-time shooters, those two are worth tracking in future seasons to see if they warrant a spot in the conversation.

  3. #3
    adolis is altuve’s father monosylab1k's Avatar
    My Team
    Dallas Mavericks
    Post Count
    15,826
    thanks

  4. #4
    Larry is a faggot Edward's Avatar
    My Team
    Phoenix Suns
    Post Count
    1,454
    IMO it's a bull method. You can't just set a minimum amount of 3 point attempts to qualify. Miller shot a better % from the field and was a better free throw shooter than Kerr but since the only 3's Kerr attempted were wide open shots created by someone else he's got a higher %, doesn't mean he's a better shooter. He might have shot 45.4% while Reggie Miller shot 39.5%, but Miller has 2560 career threes while Kerr has 726 career threes.

  5. #5
    Larry is a faggot Edward's Avatar
    My Team
    Phoenix Suns
    Post Count
    1,454
    Miller and Ray Allen are in a league of their own as the two best shooters ever and Peja is a distant 3rd and Nash close behind him as the 4th best of all time. Players like Kerr who attempted less than 2 3's a game don't stack up to what Miller and Allen were able to do.

  6. #6
    ಥ﹏ಥ DAF86's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Post Count
    47,238
    Agreed with Steve Nash, he's the best shooter I have ever seen. And with him it doesn't matter if he's spot up or fading away or in one leg, he always seems to hit his shots at a high %. Something a lot of the guys on the list can't do.

  7. #7
    Spur-taaaa TDMVPDPOY's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Post Count
    41,384
    its bs

    nash isnt a volume shooter like some of them guys on the list

  8. #8
    Spur-taaaa TDMVPDPOY's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Post Count
    41,384
    its bs

    nash isnt a volume shooter like some of them guys on the list

  9. #9
    Based dirk4mvp's Avatar
    My Team
    Dallas Mavericks
    Post Count
    24,173
    gtfo. an assload of players can hit 3's at a good rate when they only shots they take are open spot up 3's.

  10. #10
    Banned
    My Team
    Phoenix Suns
    Post Count
    6,998
    gtfo. an assload of players can hit 3's at a good rate when they only shots they take are open spot up 3's.
    Peja is 4th all time in career makes and idk what Peja you watched when he was on Sacramento saying the only 3's he could make were up spot up threes.

  11. #11
    Rubber Dinghy Rapids Bro Muser's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Post Count
    11,204
    Peja above Bird

  12. #12
    Based dirk4mvp's Avatar
    My Team
    Dallas Mavericks
    Post Count
    24,173
    Peja is 4th all time in career makes and idk what Peja you watched when he was on Sacramento saying the only 3's he could make were up spot up threes.
    I watched the same Peja most others watched. He's not out there taking Ray Allen or Reggie type 3's.

    Kidd is also high on the list of career makes. What's your point?

  13. #13
    adolis is altuve’s father monosylab1k's Avatar
    My Team
    Dallas Mavericks
    Post Count
    15,826
    with Sacramento, Peja was sick. Hitting shots contested or wide open. As a pure shooter he's absolutely in the top 10.

  14. #14
    Banned
    My Team
    Phoenix Suns
    Post Count
    6,998
    its bs

    nash isnt a volume shooter like some of them guys on the list

    Nash also played in offenses that are known to inflate stats and has always been more feared as a passer then as a scorer. In other words teams have always been more focused in limiting Nash's assists than they have limiting Nash's threes. Hollinger says it himself in this article, he had no idea Nash was such a good shooter. Nash's shooting has managed to sneak under the radar for so long because it didn't kill teams like his passing did.

    With Miller and Allen everyone knew they were scorers who could win games with their shooting, yet they managed to put up those numbers regardless of the fact they played on some scrubby teams with little to no other threats to take attention off them. Don't get me wrong, Nash is one of the best shooters of all time, but his shooting stats are somewhat a bi-product of his other game.

  15. #15
    Banned
    My Team
    Phoenix Suns
    Post Count
    6,998
    I watched the same Peja most others watched. He's not out there taking Ray Allen or Reggie type 3's.

    Kidd is also high on the list of career makes. What's your point?

    Yeah, hence why Edward said he's a "distant 3rd" behind Allen and Miller. No one is saying he's as good as them.

    comparing him to Kidd. Kidd is a 40% career FG shooter and a 34.7% career 3 point shooter and only averages 13.6 PPG career wise. I'm not saying career 3's made is the decider, I'm saying when %'s are close like these are you need to look at volume.

  16. #16
    Drive for Five! ambchang's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Post Count
    18,142
    Does not take into account any defenses that are played by era? Is Hollinger trying to say that shooting 50% in the fast-breaking 80s is the same as shooting 50% in the thugball 90's which is the same as shooting 50% from the no handcheck 00's?

    It also does not take into account the strength of the 3 pt line starting in the mid 90s, nor does it take into effect the few years with the shortened 3 pt line.

    This list reeks of fail.

  17. #17
    I Am Jack's Smirking Revenge atxrocker's Avatar
    My Team
    Sacramento Kings
    Post Count
    5,615
    with Sacramento, Peja was sick. Hitting shots contested or wide open. As a pure shooter he's absolutely in the top 10.
    Agreed. He had pin point accuracy during his Sac days. It was fun to watch.

  18. #18
    you are a faggot Phillip's Avatar
    My Team
    Dallas Mavericks
    Post Count
    5,774
    ive always thought steve nash is the best shooter in NBA history

    there isnt a single kind of jumpshot he cant make. runners, 3 pointers, mid range, fading, falling to side, off balance, bank, baseline... you name it, he hits it.

  19. #19
    hizzle fo shizzle Girasuck's Avatar
    My Team
    Utah Jazz
    Post Count
    1,664
    For my money, I haven't seen a better shooter than Hornecek within the past 25 years. I felt this way when he was in Phoenix and Philadelphia before his time with the Jazz.

  20. #20
    Pump Bacon Cane's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Post Count
    3,687
    Peja above Bird
    Bird's definitely a better overall talent especially at making difficult shots but he's had a few seasons where his 3% was in the 20-30% range (although in relatively few attempts) and he's had the unfortunate back injury which might have an impact as well.

    Does not take into account any defenses that are played by era? Is Hollinger trying to say that shooting 50% in the fast-breaking 80s is the same as shooting 50% in the thugball 90's which is the same as shooting 50% from the no handcheck 00's?

    It also does not take into account the strength of the 3 pt line starting in the mid 90s, nor does it take into effect the few years with the shortened 3 pt line.

    This list reeks of fail.
    Actually he acknowledges those factors but it does seem like a simplistic stat:

    "From there, I set about creating a formula to rank the best shooters. I thought I'd have to dream up something very complex to adjust for all the variables involved, but it turned out a simple formula worked far better than any of my more exotic concoctions. I simply added a player's 2-point, 3-point and free throw percentages. We'll call this "Combined Shooting Rating," or CSR for short.

    CSR works for a few reasons. First, the free throw is a pretty fair arbiter of shooting ability. It's the only true apples-to-apples measurement we have, because it's always 15 feet from the hoop and unguarded, regardless of what system the team runs or how the player is used. It's only one shot among many that need to be in a player's arsenal, but it's an important one.

    Second, the yin and yang of 2-point and 3-point ability balance each other out. Some players are more effective midrange shooters than long-range marksmen, while others are more comfortable bombing away. And using this method makes the system more fair to players from the 1980s and early '90s, when teams didn't utilize the 3 as often or as effectively."

  21. #21
    Veteran
    My Team
    Boston Celtics
    Post Count
    4,675
    I agree with Peja above Bird as a pure shooter (and I agree with Hollinger's rationale - Bird was much more a shot-creator than a shooter). It's difficult to compare players from different eras as shooters because the game changed so much with the introduction of the 3 point line (which was a novelty when Bird entered the league).

    For example, sticking with Bird and Stojakovic: Bird took 17334 shots throughout his career, 1727 of which were 3s. That's less than 10%. OTOH, the croatian took 10492 shots, of which 4256 were 3s. That's almost 50%.

    Specialist jump-shooters, who can truly dominate a game shooting jumpers, are a relatively recent development. If Bird was playing today, nobody would call him a "shooter". Even LBJ has more the shot-selection of a shooter than Bird and it isn't particularly close. Magic Johnson was possibly a worse shooter than Rondo for most of his career.

  22. #22
    Veteran endrity's Avatar
    My Team
    Dallas Mavericks
    Post Count
    3,050
    Fair list, and in fact I agree with most of Hollinger's rationale. There isn't any big surprises there. Dirk's relatively not-so-stellar 3pt% might hurt him a bit, I want to see how he does on any list of 'mid-range' shooters, 12-17 ft.

    Also, I am not surprised with Nash being at the top. His form is excellent, his follow-through also. When trying to improve my jump shot I tried to copy Nash's style, and I admit that my shot improved quite a bit, so I've always had a bit of a soft spot for him as a shooter. He's probably not as good coming around screens like Ray Allen or Peja at his peak were, but in terms of creating his own jump shot he is probably better than those two. Nice read by prof. Hollinger this time!

  23. #23
    Double facepalm...
    My Team
    Detroit Pistons
    Post Count
    2,842
    Didn't read the article, and I won't comment on those I did not see play. So from those I have:

    In no particular order:

    Reggie Miller
    Sam Cassell
    Rip Hamilton
    Ray Allen
    Glen Rice
    Steve Kerr
    Peja Sonnavavich
    Dirk
    Steve Nash
    Alan Houston


    Scoring is not shooting. And I included guys who don't have jumpers I would ever teach anyone.

    Kobe is a scorer. Pierce is a scorer. Iverson was a scorer. Jordan (while proficient) was a scorer.

    I never saw JW play, Alex English play, Larry Bird play...

  24. #24
    Believe.
    My Team
    Dallas Mavericks
    Post Count
    2,066
    Well, Hollinger separated the shots to make it possible to distinguish between 2's and 3's. Again some metrcis by him... Within the "normal" stats neither Price nor Nash have a 50/40/90 for their entire career. Nash is quite close though.

    Of course, I don't want to take anything away from Nash and Price, both are/were great shooters, absolutely no doubt about it. But IMO Hollinger's metrics are just based on stats and somehow it seems he's using them just the way he needs it right now.

  25. #25
    Thread Killa! jimo2305's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Post Count
    1,945
    and hollinger gets paid?

    i mean.. anytime i see an article on espn i cringe when i see the words "by john hollinger"



    ..seriously..

    john needs to hook up some of that espn weed.. ill pay double

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •