More Manu: "I am looking forward to playing (WC)"

[smeagol]

Argue them instead of being a passive-aggressive bag then.

Not in the mood to argue.

Just in the mood to point out you appear to be bitter for some reason.

Chau!

[baseline bum]

Not in the mood to argue.

Just in the mood to point out you appear to be bitter for some reason.

Chau!

So you just came to throw insults and then cry when you hear them back?

[smeagol]

So you just came to throw insults and then cry when you hear them back?

The only one throwing insults was you, unless pointing out you appear to be bitter is an insult.

And I'm not crying. Actually, I'm laughing 'cause life is pretty good to me . . .

[baseline bum]

Bull , you dropped by with some passive-aggressive drive-by crap and then started playing the victim card when you heard it back.

[baseline bum]

So Mr Drive-By, tell me where I was wrong when I pointed out that Manu lost major parts of two seasons due to injuries suffered in international play, since those are the main points I was making until Phenom and later you decided it was better to go the 3rd grade route.

[ElNono]

AFAIK, the only season where Manu lost NBA games due to an injury in international play was the 2002-2003 NBA season...

[DAF86]

So Mr Drive-By, tell me where I was wrong when I pointed out that Manu lost major parts of two seasons due to injuries suffered in international play, since those are the main points I was making until Phenom and later you decided it was better to go the 3rd grade route.

The injury that made Manu lost major parts of two seasons was suffered during an NBA game so you were wrong prettty much on the whole thing.

[baseline bum]

The injury that made Manu lost major parts of two seasons was suffered during an NBA game so you were wrong prettty much on the whole thing.

The one in 2008 was made worse when he reinjured it in the Olympics, and probably led to the stress fracture due to overcompensation. The one in 2002 was clearly during the WCs.

[DAF86]

The one in 2008 was made worse when he reinjured it in the Olympics, and probably led to the stress fracture due to overcompensation.

Still, the injury took place on an NBA game and if Manu wouldn't have reinjured it in the Olympics he would have done it on the NBA the next season, the thing was crusehd.

The one in 2002 was clearly during the WCs.

I thought you were talking just about the last one. Yeah, the 2002 one was during the WC but I don't remember him missing a meaningful amount of time, besides the Spurs ended up winning the whole thing so who cares?

[Phenomanul]

Hey dip , your fellow bible-thumper bag is the one who started with the insults when he got called out for his stupid point.

You threw the first stone buddy... and you didn't refute anything... you just copied my entire argument and made a stupid comment about sand and feminine hygiene.

How is that considered counterpoint? Oh wait, it would be in your delusional world where no one but you is right...

Like I said, you're acting like a bitter twit... insulting religion when that was never on the table of discussion. Irrelevantly so I would add...

Grow up...

[Phenomanul]

So Mr Drive-By, tell me where I was wrong when I pointed out that Manu lost major parts of two seasons due to injuries suffered in international play, since those are the main points I was making until Phenom and later you decided it was better to go the 3rd grade route.

I went 3rd grade route?

Good argument, especially neglecting the part about him being ineffective most of the season and not really finding a big role on the team because of that. I never expected a correlation=causation argument from you.

The first stone...


My response intended to correct the fact that your accusation was baseless.

You said Ginobili being hurt twice after international play was a reason not to let him go to Turkey... I pointed out the fact that the Spurs won the Championship three times after FIBA ball... Rendering your observation null... I never said that they won because he played FIBA ball. If I had then your "correlation=causation" statement would have been valid... But I didn't because that wasn't my argument... and yet you saw it fitting to throw a jab at me as if it were...

Then you have the audacity to say that I overreacted for being called out... Every one but you can see the hypocrisy of what later followed.
Who knew you would get so bent out of shape for a "Klumps" reference... unless of course your real name is Cleetus...

[baseline bum]

I went 3rd grade route?



The first stone...


My response intended to correct the fact that your accusation was baseless.

You said Ginobili being hurt twice after international play was a reason not to let him go to Turkey... I pointed out the fact that the Spurs won the Championship three times after FIBA ball... Rendering your observation null... I never said that they won because he played FIBA ball. If I had then your "correlation=causation" statement would have been valid... But I didn't because that wasn't my argument... and yet you saw it fitting to throw a jab at me as if it were...

Then you have the audacity to say that I overreacted for being called out... Every one but you can see the hypocrisy of what later followed.
Who knew you would get so bent out of shape for a "Klumps" reference... unless of course your real name is Cleetus...

You can't be serious. You threw the stone in labelling me a redneck with the Cleetus remark, which was uncalled for when you were clearly making a correlation argument for the Spurs success in years he didn't get hurt. It's plainly obvious that his injuries in 2002 and 2008 cost the Spurs bigtime.

Ginobili should have been a rookie of the year candidate in 2002-03. He didn't just learn to play in the 2004 Olympics; he was killing in Kinder-Bologna for two seasons before he came. He was far better than the 7.6 ppg on 44% shooting that he delivered in an injury-plagued 2002-03 season (or the 9.5 points on 39% shooting he had in the playoffs). It's not like he underwhelmed because he was an immature 19 year-old playing his first important games. But you think it's irrelevant to whether he plays now, because the Spurs happened to win the le in 2003. Maybe I'd agree if the Spurs still had Tim Duncan in his prime, David Robinson, Stephen Jackson, and Malik Rose. Unfortunately, they're way weaker at every single one of those positions now (starting PF, starting C, starting SG, and backup PF/C), and the team will go nowhere with the inconsistent Ginobili we saw in 2002-03. Blaming the coach for Manu having a bad opening season is a cop-out. Anyone who watched that year knows he wasn't physically what he was at Kinder the previous season because he was constantly battling that nagging ankle injury.

2008-09 is pretty self-explanatory; the team nosedived when his stress-fracture sunk the season. Manu has always been injury prone, and out of the summers he played international ball (02,04,06, and 08), twice he had injuries that cast a long shadow over his season. Maybe you're fine with a coin flip, but I think it's ridiculous to think an injury-prone player (and an aging one at that) with a demonstrated track record of negatively affecting seasons as a direct result of playing in those compe ions should still be playing in them in the last year or two of a le window the Spurs are desperately trying to pry open. There's a clear causative link between Manu playing in the summer and the Spurs le hopes diminishing.

[baseline bum]

I thought you were talking just about the last one. Yeah, the 2002 one was during the WC but I don't remember him missing a meaningful amount of time, besides the Spurs ended up winning the whole thing so who cares?

He missed 13 games in 02-03 and didn't seem to play a lot of minutes until after the all-star break. All that missed time meant he never seemed to gel with the team or find his role on it, and thus was a bit of a disappointment until 03-04. Everyone remembers the steal on Jefferson in game 6, the shot to put the Spurs up 5 in game 3 in NJ, crossing over Kobe and then Shaq in game 6, and the putback at the half in Dallas in game 3 or 4, but what's lost is that overall his playoffs individually were nothing to write home about, and the Spurs were lucky as Stephen Jackson came out of nowhere that season to cover up the hole that Manu was brought in to fill. I don't see any way a healthy Ginobili has that kind of season and playoff production.

[ElNono]

He missed 13 games in 02-03 and didn't seem to play a lot of minutes until after the all-star break. All that missed time meant he never seemed to gel with the team or find his role on it, and thus was a bit of a disappointment until 03-04. Everyone remembers the steal on Jefferson in game 6, the shot to put the Spurs up 5 in game 3 in NJ, crossing over Kobe and then Shaq in game 6, and the putback at the half in Dallas in game 3 or 4, but what's lost is that overall his playoffs individually were nothing to write home about, and the Spurs were lucky as Stephen Jackson came out of nowhere that season to cover up the hole that Manu was brought in to fill. I don't see any way a healthy Ginobili has that kind of season and playoff production.

First of all, Steve Smith was in front of him on the rotation when the season started. That's why he didn't play many minutes until the All-Star break, where it became evident the guy deserved more time out there. And are you really knocking on a NBA rookie because his first ever playoffs weren't superstar caliber? Last, but not least, your selective memory seems to be skipping some key plays from those finals. Who could forget his steal on Lucious Harris in Game 3 along with a runner that pretty much sealed the deal in that game?

Here... refresh your memory: recap

To be honest, ragging on this guy is re ed. I understand if you're mad or pissed off because he loves his NT as much or more than the Spurs. But to try to minimize the impact this guy had on the Spurs is really being butthurt and nothing else.

[baseline bum]

I don't know how you can take explaining a subpar season by injury troubles as ragging on him.

[ElNono]

I don't know how you can take explaining a subpar season by injury troubles as ragging on him.

What subpar season? His rookie season was as good as any other rookie that comes to a team with two hall of famers. Tell me another Euro player that came straight to the NBA and made an impact right away... it always takes time for them to adapt. Furthermore, what injury troubles????? He recovered from the twisted ankle just fine. I don't remember him limping or complaining about any injury that season, do you?

[Phenomanul]

You can't be serious. You threw the stone in labelling me a redneck with the Cleetus remark...

Again... it was a "Klumps" reference... Eddie Murphy... ring a bell?

Why would I call you a redneck? I've never even met you.

which was uncalled for when you were clearly making a correlation argument for the Spurs success in years he didn't get hurt. It's plainly obvious that his injuries in 2002 and 2008 cost the Spurs bigtime.

You misread my entire argument... and continue to insist that it was how you and only you perceived it...

I wasn't arguing for correlation/causation... I was simply stating that you couldn't say that International play has always injured Manu (a true correlation/causation argument). But I can see that no amount of explanation will suit you... you've dug in your heels at this point.

Ginobili should have been a rookie of the year candidate in 2002-03.

Find where I state that Ginobili's injury vs. Germany didn't slow his integration into the league... In fact, I agreed with you...

But you can't ignore what Pop, by his own admission has said on numerous occasions regarding his misuse of Ginobili during his first two seasons in the league... you want me to find those articles for ya? Unless of course you feel the effects from his high-ankle sprain against Nowitzki lingered on through the 2004 season as well?

Fact is, Ginobili was healthy by January of 2003... but he kept getting yanked out of games for what Pop considered "boneheaded" plays... It wasn't until Athens that Pop finally decided to "unleash" Ginobili.

He didn't just learn to play in the 2004 Olympics; he was killing in Kinder-Bologna for two seasons before he came. He was far better than the 7.6 ppg on 44% shooting that he delivered in an injury-plagued 2002-03 season (or the 9.5 points on 39% shooting he had in the playoffs).

I think I more than implied this same point by suggesting that he should have been brought over sooner... of course, you just glossed over it... to make your insidious genitalia reference... 3rd grade route indeed...

It's not like he underwhelmed because he was an immature 19 year-old playing his first important games.

Why do you feel you have to put words in my mouth to make your points... I never implied what you just stated.

But you think it's irrelevant to whether he plays now, because the Spurs happened to win the le in 2003. Maybe I'd agree if the Spurs still had Tim Duncan in his prime, David Robinson, Stephen Jackson, and Malik Rose. Unfortunately, they're way weaker at every single one of those positions now (starting PF, starting C, starting SG, and backup PF/C), and the team will go nowhere with the inconsistent Ginobili we saw in 2002-03. Blaming the coach for Manu having a bad opening season is a cop-out. Anyone who watched that year knows he wasn't physically what he was at Kinder the previous season because he was constantly battling that nagging ankle injury.

I never said it wasn't irrelevant. Even so... that's no reason to state that Ginobili will get injured in Turkey. There's no guarantee for health... Ginobili can get injured in what is left of the season... during the playoffs... at his home... in the offseason... at the gym... going to Turkey doesn't necessarily mean he'll get injured... Sure, his age doesn't help... but I believe I've stated that much on at least three occasions in this thread alone...

2008-09 is pretty self-explanatory; the team nosedived when his stress-fracture sunk the season. Manu has always been injury prone, and out of the summers he played international ball (02,04,06, and 08), twice he had injuries that cast a long shadow over his season. Maybe you're fine with a coin flip, but I think it's ridiculous to think an injury-prone player (and an aging one at that) with a demonstrated track record of negatively affecting seasons as a direct result of playing in those compe ions should still be playing in them in the last year or two of a le window the Spurs are desperately trying to pry open. There's a clear causative link between Manu playing in the summer and the Spurs le hopes diminishing.

I've gone on the record that I wish he wouldn't play... but thanks for admitting that it was you that is made the correlation=causation argument to begin with...

I bolded it above so that you can stop with your theatrics...

[21_Blessings]

I am looking forward to watching Manu come off the Lakers bench next year.

[Obstructed_View]

I am looking forward to this thread dying the death it so richly deserves.

[baseline bum]

Again... it was a "Klumps" reference... Eddie Murphy... ring a bell?

Why would I call you a redneck? I've never even met you.

No, I have never seen Klumps with Eddie Murphy. So what exactly is the context of the Cleetus remark then?

Having looked up who Cletus was, it doesn't sound like a favorable comparison.

You misread my entire argument... and continue to insist that it was how you and only you perceived it...

What exactly was the point of the bolded argument about the Spurs winning three les then? I implied the international play and the lack of time off for Manu had a dangerous chance of hurting the team based on past results, where nagging injuries significantly hampered his seasons and thus hurt the Spurs chances (since it happened twice). You seemed to imply all of that should be dismissed because the Spurs won the le three times when he played the previous summer. As if the correlation between les and international play rendered the injury concerns moot.

I wasn't arguing for correlation/causation... I was simply stating that you couldn't say that International play has always injured Manu (a true correlation/causation argument). But I can see that no amount of explanation will suit you... you've dug in your heels at this point.

I never made any argument remotely like that.

Find where I state that Ginobili's injury vs. Germany didn't slow his integration into the league... In fact, I agreed with you...

But you can't ignore what Pop, by his own admission has said on numerous occasions regarding his misuse of Ginobili during his first two seasons in the league... you want me to find those articles for ya? Unless of course you feel the effects from his high-ankle sprain against Nowitzki lingered on through the 2004 season as well?

Fact is, Ginobili was healthy by January of 2003... but he kept getting yanked out of games for what Pop considered "boneheaded" plays... It wasn't until Athens that Pop finally decided to "unleash" Ginobili.

2003 and 2004 are two seasons wholly unlike each other, so they deserve to be treated separately. In 03, like you just said above, his injury hurt his integration with the team. It prevented the team from developing the chemistry with Manu that would have likely been there had he not dealt with that ankle problem, and hence relegated him to a smaller role than a Manu who was healthy for the year would have had.

I don't think the 2004 debacle was about distrust between Pop and Manu. It was more about him being in love with a 6'10" guy who could hit outside shots, rebound, and defend, and Pop trying to massage his ego and hope he gained confidence. Popovich saw another project like what he had in Malik Rose or Stephen Jackson, except with a much stronger talent base to build off of. Perhaps the gold changed things for him, but I think the simpler and more likely explanation is Pop just realized his project was a bust and that it was time to stop screwing around at Manu's expense.

I think I more than implied this same point by suggesting that he should have been brought over sooner... of course, you just glossed over it... to make your insidious genitalia reference... 3rd grade route indeed...

Surely you can see why being called a redneck name like Cleetus would piss someone off.

Why do you feel you have to put words in my mouth to make your points... I never implied what you just stated.

I never said you implied that. I posted it as an illustration of why the expectations on him were higher than for a typical rookie to solidify the point that 02-03 was an extremely disappointing season for him (individually).

I never said it wasn't irrelevant. Even so... that's no reason to state that Ginobili will get injured in Turkey. There's no guarantee for health... Ginobili can get injured in what is left of the season... during the playoffs... at his home... in the offseason... at the gym... going to Turkey doesn't necessarily mean he'll get injured... Sure, his age doesn't help... but I believe I've stated that much on at least three occasions in this thread alone...

I only said the chances of him, an injury-prone player, getting hurt and casting a cloud over next season again were a major concern. The Spurs have absolutely no margin of error. It's basically do it next year or maybe somehow the year after or wait another 25 years and hope they get lucky enough land another Duncan in the draft.

Besides, if Manu gets hurt in a Spurs uniform, it's in the service of trying to win another le. The best case scenario if he plays Turkey is that Manu doesn't get much rest this summer and has to have his minutes limited next season. It's nothing but negative utility for the team.

I've gone on the record that I wish he wouldn't play... but thanks for admitting that it was you that is made the correlation=causation argument to begin with...

I bolded it above so that you can stop with your theatrics...

You've also gone on record criticising valid injury concerns. I'm not sure how you get that argument as a correlative one either. A straight correlation argument is something like "dancing causes cancer" as opposed to "carcinogens in cigarette smoke present at bars causes cancer".

Surely you don't disagree with me in the idea that extra games increase the chances one gets injured and that Manu's body is not the strongest when it comes to fighting off and overcoming injuries. Hence, the probability for getting hurt when his body is worn down from a long season and (hopefully) a decent playoff run is significant, and thus presents the likelihood of it snowballing based on his body and style of play. The age just adds on top of that. A Spurs team with an 80% or less Manu has virtually no chance to do anything serious in the postseason, so having him play in Turkey this year and Olympic qualifiers the next is a of a gamble for the team.

[WalterBenitez]

Does the ARG national team pay well?

Not sure if they are paid, probably some few dollars in terms of NBA's budget, but this is not about money is about respect, pride.

For non US' players those (Olimpycs + WC) are the tournaments.

BTW Manu better play or get involved in WC if he ever plan to return to ARG...

[WalterBenitez]

I am looking forward to watching Manu come off the Lakers bench next year.

Why are we suffering with those terrorist posters

[ElNono]

I am looking forward to this thread dying the death it so richly deserves.

[baseline bum]

Yeah, God forbid there is a thread critical of anyone but Pop here.

[MaNuMaNiAc]

Not sure if they are paid, probably some few dollars in terms of NBA's budget, but this is not about money is about respect, pride.

For non US' players those (Olimpycs + WC) are the tournaments.

BTW Manu better play or get involved in WC if he ever plan to return to ARG...

are you ing kidding me? Why? He doesn't owe to anyone other than the one paying his salary. Man, I hate idiots that think like you.