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  1. #101
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    you mean.. sovereign territories from syria and the S.A?


    They won those territories and in the 67 war, then gave them back on conditions of peace. The P's didn't hold their end of the bargain, so therefore the israelis are just taking back what they gave on conditions of promise.

    Glad you participated.
    I agree, and I think you and I don't agree very often...

  2. #102
    Veteran Ignignokt's Avatar
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    so you are in favor of letting Israel take all land they can? (Because they do it kicking arab ass?? )

    because the whole conflict is that Israel plans to annex the rest of Old Jerusalem, where Arabs are now. You are in favor of allowing them that?
    bull .


    That's not in any charter of the Israeli govt, and is just hearsay. No official do ent that the Israelis promulgate show that.

    On the contrary, The PLO's charter does say that they want to drive all the jews to the sea. And for one thing, I'm not stating that israel should take Syrian and Lebonese lands, just that they should be able to take back what they already fought for when they were attacked.

    Don't bring that weak here.

  3. #103
    9mm nkdlunch's Avatar
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    bull .


    That's not in any charter of the Israeli govt, and is just hearsay. No official do ent that the Israelis promulgate show that.

    On the contrary, The PLO's charter does say that they want to drive all the jews to the sea. And for one thing, I'm not stating that israel should take Syrian and Lebonese lands, just that they should be able to take back what they already fought for when they were attacked.

    Don't bring that weak here.
    of course it's not on any charter

    but the writing is on the wall. And the settlements plan proof. End of story. next.

  4. #104
    Veteran Ignignokt's Avatar
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    I agree, and I think you and I don't agree very often...
    really, you just don't read my posts very often.


    Not surprised.

  5. #105
    Veteran Ignignokt's Avatar
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    of course it's not on any charter

    but the writing is on the wall. And the settlements plan proof. End of story. next.
    If you are willing to believe that Israel has bad intentions on little to no evidence, but willing to dismiss big evidence, history, and outright mission statements that clearly illustrate the Palestinians bad intentions, then you're a lost cause.

    And about the settlements being proof of arab conquest is just pure baloney. The israeli's are not taking new lands for which they have not already offered on conditions after the 67 war. Your argument is still weak.

  6. #106
    9mm nkdlunch's Avatar
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    If you are willing to believe that Israel has bad intentions on little to no evidence, but willing to dismiss big evidence, history, and outright mission statements that clearly illustrate the Palestinians bad intentions, then you're a lost cause.

    And about the settlements being proof of arab conquest is just pure baloney. The israeli's are not taking new lands for which they have not already offered on conditions after the 67 war. Your argument is still weak.
    yes they are. open your eyes.

    your argument is not much stronger if at all.

  7. #107
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    The crisis has brought to the fore two deeper worries for the Israeli government. For the first time, a senior American general has linked publicly America’s failure to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict with its military fortunes in Iraq and Afghanistan. “The conflict foments anti-American sentiment, due to a perception of US favouritism for Israel,” General David Petraeus said in testimony prepared for a Senate committee this week. Israeli officials and pro-Israel activists in America have been rattled by the surfacing of such sentiment. This is a “particularly pernicious” argument, says Abe Foxman, national chairman of the Anti-Defamation League and a prominent spokesman for American Jews. It “smacks of blaming the Jews for everything.”
    http://www.economist.com/daily/news/...ry_id=15715808

    There it is in a nuts .

    Any criticism of Israel is almost automatically painted as anti-Semetic.

  8. #108
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    If you are willing to believe that Israel has bad intentions on little to no evidence, but willing to dismiss big evidence, history, and outright mission statements that clearly illustrate the Palestinians bad intentions, then you're a lost cause.

    And about the settlements being proof of arab conquest is just pure baloney. The israeli's are not taking new lands for which they have not already offered on conditions after the 67 war. Your argument is still weak.
    Israel has over many decades, rather steadily forcefully relocated Palestinian villages. We have looked the other way on a lot of the rather unethical things they have done, from the fletchette artillery rounds used in the recent skirmish in Gaza, to the "shoot first, ask questions later" stuff..

    Israel is our friend, and should be, but I think we should be a bit more fair when it comes to what they do.

    The fact that the general's testimony from congress has finally gotten the message through that our overly uncritical and hypocritical stance when it comes to Israel hurts us politically in the Middle East does not come as a surprise to me.

  9. #109
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    http://www.economist.com/daily/news/...ry_id=15715808

    There it is in a nuts .

    Any criticism of Israel is almost automatically painted as anti-Semetic.
    Well, my criticism is they have become soft. They should have decimated their attackers in December 2008. The Palestinians only respect strength. Unless Israel makes it too painful for them to keep attacking, they can expect it again.

    Am I anti-Semetic?

  10. #110
    Veteran Ignignokt's Avatar
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    yes they are. open your eyes.

    your argument is not much stronger if at all.
    you lie.

    The Palestinians want east Jerusalem, which Israel captured in the 1967 war, to be the capital of a future state; Israel claims all of Jerusalem as its capital.
    http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp...qVJauM5zDQhY9w

    like i said, nothing new that they are capturing than what they won in the 67 war, offered to palestine, on conditions of peace.

  11. #111
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    By supporting Israel, is it possible we create more problems and enemies than we stand to gain by allying with Israel?

  12. #112
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    Was Obama's confrontation with Israel premeditated?

    http://www.tnr.com/article/world/the-crisis?page=0,0



    JERUSALEM—Suddenly, my city feels again like a war zone. Since the suicide bombings ended in 2005, life in Jerusalem has been for the most part relatively calm. The worst disruptions have been the traffic jams resulting from construction of a light rail, just like in a normal city. But now, again, there are clusters of helmeted border police near the gates of the Old City, black smoke from burning tires in the Arab village across from my porch, young men marching with green Islamist flags toward my neighborhood, ambulances parked at strategic places ready for this city's ultimate nightmare.

    The return of menace to Jerusalem is not because a mid-level bureaucrat announced stage four of a seven-stage process in the eventual construction of 1,600 apartments in Ramat Shlomo, a Jewish neighborhood in northeast Jerusalem. Such announcements and building projects have become so routine over the years that Palestinians have scarcely responded, let alone violently. In negotiations between Palestinians and Israelis, the permanence of Ramat Shlomo, and other Jewish neighborhoods in East Jerusalem, has been a given. Ramat Shlomo, located between the Jewish neighborhoods of French Hill and Ramot, will remain within the boundaries of Israeli Jerusalem according to every peace plan. Unlike the small Jewish enclaves inserted into Arab neighborhoods, on which Israelis are strongly divided, building in the established Jewish neighborhoods of East Jerusalem defines the national consensus.

    Why, then, the outbreak of violence now? Why Hamas's "day of rage" over Jerusalem and the Palestinian Authority's call to gather on the Temple Mount to "save" the Dome of the Rock from non-existent plans to build the Third Temple? Why the sudden outrage over rebuilding a synagogue, destroyed by the Jordanians in 1948, in the Old City's Jewish Quarter, when dozens of synagogues and yeshivas have been built in the quarter without incident?

    The answer lies not in Jerusalem but in Washington. By placing the issue of building in Jewish neighborhoods in East Jerusalem at the center of the peace process, President Obama has inadvertently challenged the Palestinians to do no less.

    Astonishingly, Obama is repeating the key tactical mistake of his failed efforts to restart Middle East peace talks over the last year. Though Obama's insistence on a settlement freeze to help restart negotiations was legitimate, he went a step too far by including building in East Jerusalem. Every Israeli government over the last four decades has built in the Jewish neighborhoods of East Jerusalem; no government, let alone one headed by the Likud, could possibly agree to a freeze there. Obama made resumption of negotiations hostage to a demand that could not be met. The result was that Palestinian leaders were forced to adjust their demands accordingly.

    Obama is directly responsible for one of the most absurd turns in the history of Middle East negotiations. Though Palestinian leaders negotiated with Israeli governments that built extensively in the West Bank, they now refused to sit down with the first Israeli government to actually agree to a suspension of building. Obama's demand for a building freeze in Jerusalem led to a freeze in negotiations.

    Finally, after intensive efforts, the administration produced the pathetic achievement of "proximity talks"—setting Palestinian-Israeli negotiations back a generation, to the time when Palestinian leaders refused to sit at the same table with Israelis.

    That Obama could be guilty of such amateurishness was perhaps forgivable because he was, after all, an amateur. But he has now taken his failed policy and intensified it. By demanding that Israel stop building in Ramat Shlomo and elsewhere in East Jerusalem—and placing that demand at the center of American-Israeli relations—he's ensured that the Palestinians won't show up even to proximity talks. This is no longer amateurishness; it is pique disguised as policy.


    Initially, when the announcement about building in Ramat Shlomo was made, Israelis shared Vice President Biden's humiliation and were outraged at their government's incompetence. The widespread sense here was that Netanyahu deserved the administration's condemnation, not because of what he did but because of what he didn't do: He failed to convey to all parts of his government the need for caution during Biden's visit, symptomatic of his chaotic style of governing generally.

    But not even the opposition accused Netanyahu of a deliberate provocation. These are not the days of Yitzhak Shamir, the former Israeli prime minister who used to greet a visit from Secretary of State James Baker with an announcement of the creation of another West Bank settlement. Netanyahu has placed the need for strategic cooperation with the U.S. on the Iranian threat ahead of the right-wing political agenda. That's why he included the Labor Party into his coalition, and why he accepted a two-state solution—an historic achievement that set the Likud, however reluctantly, within the mainstream consensus supporting Palestinian statehood. The last thing Netanyahu wanted was to embarrass Biden during his goodwill visit and trigger a clash with Obama over an ultra-Orthodox neighborhood.

    Nor is it likely that there was a deliberate provocation from the ultra-Orthodox Shas party, which runs the interior ministry that oversees building procedures. Shas, which supports peace talks and territorial compromise, is not a nationalist party. Its interest is providing housing for its cons uents, like the future residents of Ramat Shlomo; provoking international incidents is not its style.
    Finally, the very ordinariness of the building procedure—the fact that construction in Jewish East Jerusalem is considered by Israelis routine—is perhaps the best proof that there was no intentional ambush of Biden. Apparently no one in the interior ministry could imagine that a long-term plan over Ramat Shlomo would sabotage a state visit.

    In turning an incident into a crisis, Obama has convinced many Israelis that he was merely seeking a pretext to pick a fight with Israel. Netanyahu was inadvertently shabby; Obama, deliberately so.
    According to a banner headline in the newspaper Ma'ariv, senior Likud officials believe that Obama's goal is to topple the Netanyahu government, by encouraging those in the Labor Party who want to quit the coalition.

    The popular assumption is that Obama is seeking to prove his resolve as a leader by getting tough with Israel. Given his ineffectiveness against Iran and his tendency to violate his own self-imposed deadlines for sanctions, the Israeli public is not likely to be impressed. Indeed, Israelis' initial anger at Netanyahu has turned to anger against Obama. According to an Israel Radio poll on March 16, 62 percent of Israelis blame the Obama administration for the crisis, while 20 percent blame Netanyahu. (Another 17 percent blame Shas leader Eli Yishai.)

    In the last year, the administration has not once publicly condemned the Palestinians for lack of good faith—even though the Palestinian Authority media has, for example, been waging a months-long campaign denying the Jews' historic roots in Jerusalem. Just after Biden left Ramallah, Palestinian officials held a ceremony naming a square in the city after a terrorist responsible for the massacre of 38 Israeli civilians. (To its credit, yesterday, the administration did condemn the Palestinian Authority for inciting violence in Jerusalem.)

    Obama's one-sided public pressure against Israel could intensify the atmosphere of "open season" against Israel internationally. Indeed, the European Union has reaffirmed it is linking improved economic relations with Israel to the resumption of the peace process—as if it's Israel rather than the Palestinians that has refused to come to the table.



    If the administration's main tactical error in Middle East negotiating was emphasizing building in Jerusalem, its main strategic error was assuming that a two-state solution was within easy reach. Shortly after Obama took office, Rahm Emanuel was quoted in the Israeli press insisting that a Palestinian state would be created within Obama's first term. Instead, a year later, we are in the era of suspended proximity talks. Now the administration is demanding that Israel negotiate over final status issues in proximity talks as a way of convincing the Palestinians to agree to those talks--as if Israelis would agree to discuss the future of Jerusalem when Palestinian leaders refuse to even sit with them.


    To insist on the imminent possibility of a two-state solution requires amnesia. Biden's plea to Israelis to consider a withdrawal to an approximation of the 1967 borders in exchange for peace ignored the fact that Israel made that offer twice in the last decade: first, when Prime Minister Ehud Barak accepted the Clinton Proposals of December 2000, and then more recently when Prime Minister Ehud Olmert renewed the offer to Mahmoud Abbas. Abbas, says Olmert, never replied.

    The reason for Palestinian rejection of a two-state solution is because a deal would require Palestinians to confine the return of the descendants of the 1948 refugees to Palestine rather than to Israel. That would prevent a two-state solution from devolving into a bi-national, one-state solution. Israel's insistence on survival remains the obstacle to peace.

    To achieve eventual peace, the international community needs to pressure Palestinian leaders to forgo their claim to Haifa and Jaffa and confine their people's right of return to a future Palestinian state—just as the Jews will need to forgo their claim to Hebron and Bethlehem and confine their people's right of return to the state of Israel. That is the only possible deal: conceding my right of return to Greater Israel in exchange for your right of return to Greater Palestine. A majority of Israelis—along with the political system—has accepted that principle. On the Palestinian side, the political system has rejected it.

    In the absence of Palestinian willingness to compromise on the right of return, negotiations should not focus on a two-state solution but on more limited goals.

    There have been positive signs of change on the Palestinian side in the last few years. The rise of Hamas has created panic within Fatah, and the result is, for the first time, genuine security cooperation with Israel. Also, the emergence of Salam Fayyad as Palestinian prime minister marks a shift from ideological to pragmatic leadership (though Fayyad still lacks a power base). Finally, the West Bank economy is growing, thanks in part to Israel's removal of dozens of roadblocks. The goal of negotiations at this point in the conflict should be to encourage those trends.

    But by focusing on building in Jerusalem, Obama has undermined that possibility too. To the fic ious notion of a peace process, Obama has now added the fiction of an intransigent Israel blocking the peace process.

    The administration, according to a report in the Israeli newspaper Yedito Aharonot, is making an even more insidious accusation against Israel. During his visit, wrote Yediot Aharanot, Biden told Israeli leaders that their policies are endangering American lives in Afghanistan and Iraq. The report has been denied in the White House. Whether or not the remark was made, what is clear today in Jerusalem is that Obama's recklessness is endangering Israeli--and Palestinian--lives. As I listen to police sirens outside my window, Obama's political intifada against Netanyahu seems to be turning into a third intifada over Jerusalem.

  13. #113
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Someone, anyone, please tell me: what substantive shift has there been in US policy toward Israel, to educe such dark and dire tones? What has substantively changed?

  14. #114
    Veteran Ignignokt's Avatar
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    By supporting Israel, is it possible we create more problems and enemies than we stand to gain by allying with Israel?
    Why do utilitarian arguments always trump moral arguments when it comes to progressives?

  15. #115
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    Why do utilitarian arguments always trump moral arguments when it comes to progressives?
    So supporting Israel is moral, now?

    And I think you should check the beam in your own eye. Support for endless imprisonment of people who might be terrorists, or might not be, certainly leans towards the utilitarian side of the scales. So does warrantless wiretapping. So does enhanced interrogation. I'm sure there are more to be counted.

  16. #116
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    By supporting Israel, is it possible we create more problems and enemies than we stand to gain by allying with Israel?
    Only if you want to ally with terrorists.

  17. #117
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Someone, anyone, please tell me: what substantive shift has there been in US policy toward Israel, to educe such dark and dire tones? What has substantively changed?
    Democrats control the government and think they can bring Utopia to the world by being passive.

  18. #118
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    Only if you want to ally with terrorists.
    So non-support of Israel automatically means siding with terrorists?

    Is it possible in your world, WC, to not ally with EITHER country? To remain neutral? Or is neutrality impossible in your view?

  19. #119
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Can you be more specific, WC? Name some US policy toward Israel that has changed since Obama took office. You're still talking atmospherics, and your emphasis on passivity is not well-grounded IMO.

    Increasing troops in Afghanistan, taking the fight to the Taliban, and expanding Predator strikes in Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia hardly seems passive to me.

  20. #120
    Veteran Ignignokt's Avatar
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    So supporting Israel is moral, now?
    No but the argument for support should be a moral one, not a utilitarian one.

    And I think you should check the beam in your own eye. Support for endless imprisonment of people who might be terrorists, or might not be, certainly leans towards the utilitarian side of the scales. So does warrantless wiretapping. So does enhanced interrogation. I'm sure there are more to be counted.
    LOLOL... ok.. support of endless imprisonment of people who are enemy combatants and probable terrorist stems because they do not follow the geneva conventions, a moral argument.

    Warrantless wiretapping of foreign groups and enhanced interrogation that doesn't break the law, can be argued as moral. The justifications are utilitarian, because fighting terrorism should be looked at from a moral and effectiveness standpoint.

    Supporting a govt in a religous ethnic conflict, i think it's foolish to consider a utilitarian approach when it's more of a matter of life and death for both sides, rather than just detainment of certain individuals.

    But, even at that. Progressives are assholes enough that if they think they have the moral strong point in an argument they still bust out the utilitarian argument proving they have no soul.

    How many times have you heard.."well enhanced interrogation doesn't work anyway.", or "having a strong stance on alqueda is going to alienate our allies"..

  21. #121
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    So non-support of Israel automatically means siding with terrorists?

    Is it possible in your world, WC, to not ally with EITHER country? To remain neutral? Or is neutrality impossible in your view?
    I didn't mean it that way. However, I have a feeling if we stopped supporting Israel, they might take harsh action against their next aggressor. Our support has come with the price of moderation.

    Maybe it would be a good thing.

    Can you just imagine what a nuke on Mecca would do, with the threat of destroying all Muslims when faced with a "us or them" scenario?

  22. #122
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Can you be more specific, WC?
    Sorry I can't. Sometimes it's just that gut feeling, and gears turning in the back of the head that cannot be properly verbalized. I'm sure you know what I mean. It happens to all of us from time to time.
    Name some US policy toward Israel that has changed since Obama took office. You're still talking atmospherics, and your emphasis on passivity is not well-grounded IMO.
    Historically and statistically, democrats have simply wanted to separate us from Israel. Republicans embrace Israel.
    Increasing troops in Afghanistan, taking the fight to the Taliban, and expanding Predator strikes in Pakistan, Yemen and Somalia hardly seems passive to me.
    Democrats have already put themselves in the position that Iraq was not a threat, Afghanistan and Iran are.

    Or are they going to flip-flop again?

  23. #123
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    LOLOL... ok.. support of endless imprisonment of people who are enemy combatants and probable terrorist stems because they do not follow the geneva conventions, a moral argument.
    This is assuming that everyone captured is an enemy combatant. Are you willing to state such?


    Warrantless wiretapping of foreign groups and enhanced interrogation that doesn't break the law, can be argued as moral. The justifications are utilitarian, because fighting terrorism should be looked at from a moral and effectiveness standpoint.
    Since when does "breaking the law" have to do with morality? Do you think the government is morally justified in snooping through your communications to prevent terrorism? If you say yes, that strikes me as a very utilitarian argument (as you state).

    Supporting a govt in a religous ethnic conflict, i think it's foolish to consider a utilitarian approach when it's more of a matter of life and death for both sides, rather than just detainment of certain individuals.
    But my point is that it is not life and death for America; it is life and death for Israel. By supporting Israel, there is certainly a possibility that we are making enemies of the enemies of Israel. Would we be better served to let Israel fight its own battles? (I'm somewhat playing Devil's Advocate; I'm also looking for well thought out, grounded arguments for supporting Israel that takes into account the negatives of supporting them.)

    But, even at that. Progressives are assholes enough that if they think they have the moral strong point in an argument they still bust out the utilitarian argument proving they have no soul.
    Both sides use moral and utilitarian arguments. Heck, Iraq was a conservative's example of both.

    Moral: We must give them freedom!
    Utilitarian: It's ok if we kill a bunch of people or screwed stuff up, because better not to have Saddam in charge of possible WMDs.

    Both sides use both tactics with abandon.

    How many times have you heard.."well enhanced interrogation doesn't work anyway.", or "having a strong stance on alqueda is going to alienate our allies"..
    People argue that enhanced interrogation doesn't work as effectively as 'regular' interrogation because there are salient data points to back that up. Your other argument is also utilitarian in nature. I don't see how that makes someone an asshole, though.

  24. #124
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    I didn't mean it that way. However, I have a feeling if we stopped supporting Israel, they might take harsh action against their next aggressor. Our support has come with the price of moderation.

    Maybe it would be a good thing.

    Can you just imagine what a nuke on Mecca would do, with the threat of destroying all Muslims when faced with a "us or them" scenario?
    That's my point though. Israel seems like they have enough armaments to defend themself, and MAYBE THEY SHOULD.

    Like the little kid in school who gets bullied and relies on his bigger, older friend to back him up. Eventually, the kid needs to learn how to punch people out.

    I am tentatively fine with Israel taking up their own defense. I think you'd find that they'd think twice about 'dropping a nuke', as they wouldn't have much international support then. Especially without America over their shoulder to watch out for them. In fact, they might have to rely on diplomacy, amazingly enough.

    And if they didn't? Well, the consequences are on their head... not America. Sounds good to me.

  25. #125
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Sorry I can't. Sometimes it's just that gut feeling, and gears turning in the back of the head that cannot be properly verbalized. I'm sure you know what I mean. It happens to all of us from time to time.
    You got nothing. Maybe that's because nothing has really changed, policywise.

    Historically and statistically, democrats have simply wanted to separate us from Israel. Republicans embrace Israel.
    Statistically? Can you support this, or is this more gut feeling?

    Democrats have already put themselves in the position that Iraq was not a threat, Afghanistan and Iran are.

    Or are they going to flip-flop again?
    Gut feeling again?

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