Addition by Manu and Subtraction: Why Jefferson Failed

[jjktkk]

I agree, but Parker had a lot more flaws in the past and overcame them like the champion he is. He's as much in control of this team (on the floor) as Pop is. He should have taken it upon himself personally to get RJ involved often, at the expensive of his own stats.. I don't think this should have been a personal decision, just making the best decisions for the team. Especially since Parker knows better than anyone how hurt he's been.

But like I said, blame Pop. He's the one telling an injured Parker he's the first and second options out there. He's 100% behind what Parker's doing, so there's no reason for him to stop doing it. When he's on, I don't want him to, either, but that's been rare this season.

But doesn't Parker's injuries have something to do with his less than stellar play this season?

[Blackjack]

Actually, over the years I have watched the Spurs dismantle teams by letting any single player go off, while shutting down every other option. I've seen Kobe, Amare, KG, etc get theirs, while we won les.

That is why I think we need a successful team approach that incorporates more guys, rather than a reliance on Parker as everyone else mans the three point line.

If Parker dictates that the offense look like a pick and roll and three stiffs at the arch, let him do it from the bench...or better yet make him your SG and let the ball come to him through the flow of the offense.

Thats all useless talk anyway. He wont be the TP of old any time this season

The Spurs were probably playing their best ball of the year before Tony went down; Pop finally settled on his lineup. What you're failing to take into consideration is the importance of continuity and certainty in players' roles.

I didn't suggest it was my preference or belief for this team to be lead by an AI clone or that Tony was indeed one. But if this team has any shot of doing anything in the playoffs, they need their Big 3 playing at their best; throwing Tony on the bench and changing roles and rotations will net this team more of the same: failure.

I'm not a huge fan of Tony's game, but I do respect it. And I'm not foolish enough to think that somehow, for all intents and purposes, neutering his game and changing the way he and the team has gone about things for the better part of a decade is going to be all that beneficial.

The Spurs finally discovered something that had somewhat borne fruit before Tony went down and if they're to do anything once he returns ... their best bet is to see if it can't be rediscovered.

[jjktkk]

the spurs have played their ball when parker isn't in. i think that's pretty telling.

Don't good teams bond together and play well when one of their star players is out of the lineup? Are you saying the Spurs are a better team without Parker?

[z0sa]

But doesn't Parker's injuries have something to do with his less than stellar play this season?

That's my point. Since injuries have caused him to underachieve, he should have called his own number less. Pop should have been on it, though. He should realize we can't win unless Parker has a lot of help.

[urunobili]

Most people who want Parker coming from the bench simply want Manu to start to satisfy their sense of justice for their favorite player.

This... I still can't believe how anybody in the world would seriously think that TP would work better for this team off the bench...

Never posted on any of those threads cause i have always thought they were troll fodder ones...

Now with Chump saying this... it seems it was seriously discussed.

[Brazil]

When spurs will loose a game badly with TP out and RJ being scoreless, the RJ sucks by his own threads will come back and the 0 chance to win it all without TP threads will come back again....

[Brazil]

The truth shall set you free LJ. Tony doesn't suck, but he doesn't make anyone better either. Maybe we should waste more time arguing about the policies of a newspaper trying like to survive in this economy.

we have a winner

[Charles Sappa]

We must note that was played last 3 games against mediocre teams, the game had to win was against Cleveland (Without Lebron)

If we lose 2 games in a row, Manu will not be so admired by Jefferson

[whottt]

If you think Tony's been playing defense the way Pop wants him to, it's you who's delusional. Simply put Tony was on the floor so much the past few years because the team desperately needed his scoring. With guys like Oberto, Thomas, Finley and Bonner in the rotation, points are at a premium, especially when Manu was hurt.

As Hill and Blair develop, as Jefferson finds his niche in the offense, and as Bonner feels more and more comfortable putting the ball on the floor, scoring points is getting easier for this club. It's the defense that's lacking.

As far as Tony's style of play as a point guard goes, I don't think Pop finds it at all ideal. I think he just realized long ago - as he did with Manu - that the strengths and weaknesses are what they are and he's going to have to work around them. He knows Tony had the desire and work ethic to improve his game as a scorer, so he encouraged him to do so. Instead of working on his weaknesses, Tony "strengthened his strength" as many athletes do. And that's not a bad thing. It's not ideal, but any area a player improves his game is helpful in its own way.

Try not to take this the wrong way, but I have zero desire to argue with you. Just chalk it up to you presenting an incredibly challenging argument and me wanting no part of it

[HarlemHeat37]

It's funny how much people on Tony Parker here..it's like the guy never contributed to 3 les and won a Finals MVP..it's not like he carried us last season when Duncan and Ginobili were hurt..some people are always looking for reasons to bash him..

The funniest part of all might be that they praise George Hill for his playing style and teamwork, when Parker is clearly levels above Hill as a passer and as a PG..Hill's defense has also been TERRIBLE as a starter, probably worse than Parker's, yet people seem to believe otherwise..

If somebody wants to argue that an injured Tony Parker has hurt the Spurs to an extent, then I don't mind the argument..the logical fans understand Tony hasn't been the same due to injuries this season, but a LARGE part of SpursTalk will always criticize Parker for his playing style and various other reasons..it's probably the most annoying fetish on SpursTalk, these people that are obsessed with getting a pure pass first PG(which is ironic, because a lot of them continue to praise George Hill and insult Parker at the same time, when George is the complete opposite of a pure pass first PG)..

The Spurs have won multiple les with Tony Parker playing the way he has..he averaged 7.3 APG in the 2nd half of the season last year when he had to carry the load, he's averaging around 5.5-6APG this season, which is what you would expect in this system..

What people seem to ignore is that Richard Jefferson's usage % went up by a few points in December and January..I was asking for the Spurs to run plays for him and I always defended him..they DID run plays for him for a few weeks, and he DIDN'T respond well..Parker never had a problem with it, why would he?..he's never been a selfish player..

When the option is between Tony Parker creating his own offense or somehow getting Richard Jefferson involved, which one would you pick?..I'll take one of the most efficient scoring PGs of all-time instead of some above average player..

The 4th option was supposed to be a guy that can create his own offense and help the big 3, not a guy that needs somebody to create everything for him..you guys basically want Jefferson to be Malik Hairston, getting fed for dunks by his PG..he's supposed to be able to create his own offense..for a good month or so, the Spurs did run a lot of plays for him..they had him coming off screens for open Js time after time, they implemented an alley-oop play, they gave him post ups..the guy didn't respond, his jump shot has been killed..what the do you want Parker to do here?..

Some people seem to forget that the big 3 are all very good at playing off the ball..they all cut well, they're all smart players, they all finish very well..it would have been nice to have a 4th guy that could have created for them too, instead of having people criticize Parker and Duncan for not creating well enough for Jefferson..

The Spurs had 3 quality wins in a row when Tony Parker returned from his rest..against Phoenix and New Orleans, an above average team and a good team..Parker played phenomenal in those games and looked like last year's Parker since he had fresh legs..he also said that his PF was getting better..now all of a sudden, after beating some of the worst teams in the NBA, the Spurs are better without him and they're getting praise?..

Let's see them consistently beat some good teams without him, then we can talk.. , I know people are always going to bash TP, but it's funny that they do it now to defend Richard ing Jefferson, a guy that isn't en led to ..

[Ignignokt]

This thread was about to have a bottle of Whott Sauce on it, but Whott twhotted out.

[spursfaninla]

I'm not a huge fan of Tony's game, but I do respect it. And I'm not foolish enough to think that somehow, for all intents and purposes, neutering his game and changing the way he and the team has gone about things for the better part of a decade is going to be all that beneficial.

People complain that RJ NEEDS a certain type of basketball to succeed, and that Tony should either adjust or become the 6th man.

Well, adjusting is a bad plan. He will go as RJ has gone...he will play poorly.

But, it has been noted that RJ, Manu and Blair play well together. Well, that is fine. I think a starting lineup of TP, Manu, RJ, Blair, Duncan is easily our most talented lineup anyway.

As long as we diversity our offense to allow TP and duncan to get enough touches, as well as letting manu initiate the offense, it will be the most balanced and will be more difficult to defend.

I think that as long as Manu and RJ get 30 minutes where they are doing more than jump shooting from kickouts from parker, they will be effective.

Similarly, when Blair/bonner/dice each get 20+, and Hairston is in the mix, we have enough offensive diversity to take advantage of motion-offense plays, post play, mid-range jumpers, and have some 3pt shooting for the PNR with duncan/parker.

I don't get why people make it an either/or with Parker OR manu. They have co-existed in the past; now, we just happen to have more players who play better in manu's style, so we have to adjust to that as a team. That does not mean you ditch Parker's game or reduce his minutes; he is the best pure scorer on the team.

[Charles Sappa]

People have short memories. These anti-parker posts are going to keep repeating if San Antonio continues on the path to success.
I hope we finish fifth and play against Utah in first round. With Tony recovered (Tony arrived on time for the playoffs?)

There is no way San Antonio win another ring without Parker. Sorry Hill still have to see how you play the playoffs.

Sorry for my poor English

[Express-News]

We must note that was played last 3 games against mediocre teams, the game had to win was against Cleveland (Without Lebron)

If we lose 2 games in a row, Manu will not be so admired by Jefferson

Now.... what you've got in your sig son isn't something of this world..... can I have her name please?..... I need to register a couple of pics.

[DPG21920]

at people bashing TP's defense. Hurt TP ='s sucking all around. Healthy TP ='s very good defender.

[pjjrfan]

I absolutely love Manu's game, always have, I think Parker is a great talent but I have never been high on Pt. guards that look to score first, but then that's the trend now for a lot of teams. But whatever my likes or dislikes I know that a healthy Tony, a healthy Manu and a healthy Tim is what this team needs to be successful, and for most of this year all 3 have had injury issues this year and Tony's had the most. And my opinion of RJ is still the same, Choker with a capital C. So I like that he is doing well but he should have figured some way to be a contributor for this team a long time ago.

[lennyalderette]

Sweet. Another Ginobili rules, Parker sucks thread.

hate to say it but its very true, and sadly obvious. parker is a(n) older version of monta ellis. yes everyone knows how much frenchie scores but theres no intangibles o these guys very one dimensional and self centered. i would much rather keep manu than have tony on my team and i think all of san antonio would agree with me

[Charles Sappa]

Now.... what you've got in your sig son isn't something of this world..... can I have her name please?..... I need to register a couple of pics.

It is a Colombian model. She has a twin sister who also is a model. Her name is Camila Davalos

I leave a link with more photos

http://www.poringa.net/posts/imagenes/1397157/Megapost-de-las-gemelas-Camila-y-Mariana--Davalos.html

[HarlemHeat37]

LOL..no intangibles, he just has 3 les and a Finals MVP..

[jjktkk]

It's funny how much people on Tony Parker here..it's like the guy never contributed to 3 les and won a Finals MVP..it's not like he carried us last season when Duncan and Ginobili were hurt..some people are always looking for reasons to bash him..

The funniest part of all might be that they praise George Hill for his playing style and teamwork, when Parker is clearly levels above Hill as a passer and as a PG..Hill's defense has also been TERRIBLE as a starter, probably worse than Parker's, yet people seem to believe otherwise..

If somebody wants to argue that an injured Tony Parker has hurt the Spurs to an extent, then I don't mind the argument..the logical fans understand Tony hasn't been the same due to injuries this season, but a LARGE part of SpursTalk will always criticize Parker for his playing style and various other reasons..it's probably the most annoying fetish on SpursTalk, these people that are obsessed with getting a pure pass first PG(which is ironic, because a lot of them continue to praise George Hill and insult Parker at the same time, when George is the complete opposite of a pure pass first PG)..

The Spurs have won multiple les with Tony Parker playing the way he has..he averaged 7.3 APG in the 2nd half of the season last year when he had to carry the load, he's averaging around 5.5-6APG this season, which is what you would expect in this system..

What people seem to ignore is that Richard Jefferson's usage % went up by a few points in December and January..I was asking for the Spurs to run plays for him and I always defended him..they DID run plays for him for a few weeks, and he DIDN'T respond well..Parker never had a problem with it, why would he?..he's never been a selfish player..

When the option is between Tony Parker creating his own offense or somehow getting Richard Jefferson involved, which one would you pick?..I'll take one of the most efficient scoring PGs of all-time instead of some above average player..

The 4th option was supposed to be a guy that can create his own offense and help the big 3, not a guy that needs somebody to create everything for him..you guys basically want Jefferson to be Malik Hairston, getting fed for dunks by his PG..he's supposed to be able to create his own offense..for a good month or so, the Spurs did run a lot of plays for him..they had him coming off screens for open Js time after time, they implemented an alley-oop play, they gave him post ups..the guy didn't respond, his jump shot has been killed..what the do you want Parker to do here?..

Some people seem to forget that the big 3 are all very good at playing off the ball..they all cut well, they're all smart players, they all finish very well..it would have been nice to have a 4th guy that could have created for them too, instead of having people criticize Parker and Duncan for not creating well enough for Jefferson..

The Spurs had 3 quality wins in a row when Tony Parker returned from his rest..against Phoenix and New Orleans, an above average team and a good team..Parker played phenomenal in those games and looked like last year's Parker since he had fresh legs..he also said that his PF was getting better..now all of a sudden, after beating some of the worst teams in the NBA, the Spurs are better without him and they're getting praise?..

Let's see them consistently beat some good teams without him, then we can talk.. , I know people are always going to bash TP, but it's funny that they do it now to defend Richard ing Jefferson, a guy that isn't en led to ..

+1

[lennyalderette]

With all respect, I'll put some of my intellectual property on the table here at no cost just to illuminate some naive posters.... obviously since our articles were forbidden here, the forums isn't the same.............................................. . you idiots can't measure what the team has done without Parker untill they play some real teams.... they have played scrub during this stretch. jezz

not true every time we played dallas we beat them easy without parker! you know why???? let me tell you because on the other end their pg wasnt able to get in rhythm do you know why? because when parker doesnt play all other pgs we have had actually take pride in defense . when we beat dallas they were on win streaks i believe both times. like i said if your afraid to lose parker in a trade we can always get monta ellis and get the same result

[jjktkk]

hate to say it but its very true, and sadly obvious. parker is a(n) older version of monta ellis. yes everyone knows how much frenchie scores but theres no intangibles o these guys very one dimensional and self centered. i would much rather keep manu than have tony on my team and i think all of san antonio would agree with me

Wow, all of San Antonio would agree with you? Did you already go door to door and ask everyone in San Antonio? You must be exhausted. I'm gonna have disagree with you on that buddy.

[lennyalderette]

LOL..no intangibles, he just has 3 les and a Finals MVP..

yea he can score on command when healthy* but if he were that great he would have carried us a lil further in the playoffs w/out manu! think about it, no manu=no chance in !! no parker=we dont know just yet but so far looks about the same as when hes on the court. what im saying is if im so out of line please tell me the other things tony brings to the table other than scoring, lets say hes not scoring well that night. im not trying to start an argument, but im not going to sit here and act like tonys more important than manu

[lennyalderette]

Wow, all of San Antonio would agree with you? Did you already go door to door and ask everyone in San Antonio? You must be exhausted. I'm gonna have disagree with you on that buddy.

well now i have to say half of san antonio since your opinion is so highly regarded here. try going out to a bar (a real bar) and ask around see whay they say

[kaji157]

I think some thing are going out of control here, and there are some that state things as fact that aren't.

1- Fact everyone implys without sayin it.
Manu and Tony can't play together.
You can look to our 2004-2005 season to review this point. Manu played great and so did Tony.

2- Fact we always need a 6th Man.
Again, 2004-2005 season...

I think if you remove these off your head, everything is possible.
You can start Manu and Tony, which play well together, give less shots to Tony and that way Manu gets to handle a little more and involve others. Manu exits early for Hill so he can get going and then he enter for Parker to pair up with Blair and Hill.
Jefferson moves the same as Manu.
Everyone is happy.