is manu a hof

[JamStone]

Drazen Petrovic, 27 years old and in his prime, was on that 1992 Croatian team.

That's arguable. In 1992, Kukoc has just won his third straight Mr. Europa Player of the Year award. He had won the European Championship MVP a year earlier in 1991. He was already a two time Euroscar Player of the Year award winner and two time Euroleague Final Four MVP winner. He was widely considered the best European player period, much less the best player on Croatia's team. There's no doubt that Drazen was also a European superstar in his own right. It was quite the luxury for Croatia to boast a couple superstar players, even after the Yugoslavian split.

But, I think it's still only arguable at best. Kind of like 23 year old LeBron and 29 year old Kobe on the 2008 Olympic squad. Can easily argue Kobe in his prime was the best player on that team. But the flipside saying LeBron was the best player on that team despite being only 23 had just as much merit.

[ElNono]

I think something that needs to be remarked is that when JamStone says: "Well, they only lost to the Dream Team", and that's exactly what made that Argentinian core so special. It wasn't just the gold in Athens, but the fact that were able to:
1) Be the first team to beat Team USA since they started fielding NBA players
2) Be the first team that actually accomplished the feat twice

Ginobili was the leader of that core and the day he's enshrined in the HoF, it will be a recognition not only to him, but to that generation of players and their historical accomplishment.

[JamStone]

That sure sounds an awlful lot Like Phil Jackson's comments on the Spurs championship in 99 needing an asterisk put alongside their le because of the shortened season that year. Pretty lame IMO. An championship, or a Gold Medal is still quite an accomplishment, no matter how you win, or who the compe ion is.

You didn't follow the entire series of posts if you thought that was my bottomline point. But regardless, I'll address it this way:

So Arvydus Sabonis' gold medal in the 1988 Olympics carries as much merit even though that Olympics had no professional NBA athletes?

Yugoslavia finished ahead of that Team USA squad as well in that Olympics, winning silver to USA's bronze. So, Toni Kukoc was on a team that was better than American players in the 1988 Olympics so that must be part of his legend as well and factor in his HOF chances, right?

[Josepatches_]

Kukoc was the best player on the Croatian team that won silver in the 1992 Olympics.

Kukoc was really good but not true.Drazen was.Petrovic was in another level.

[ElNono]

And BTW, I have nothing against Kukoc, who I thought was an outstanding player. But Mel is right in that the HoF recognized that golden era of Croatian basketball and it's massive influence in the mass influx on European players in the NBA by enshrining him. You could even argue Kukoc's NBA career (and to some degree, Manu's NBA career) is a by-product of Petrovic.

[smeagol]

You didn't follow the entire series of posts if you thought that was my bottomline point. But regardless, I'll address it this way:

So Arvydus Sabonis' gold medal in the 1988 Olympics carries as much merit even though that Olympics had no professional NBA athletes?

Yugoslavia finished ahead of that Team USA squad as well in that Olympics, winning silver to USA's bronze. So, Toni Kukoc was on a team that was better than American players in the 1988 Olympics so that must be part of his legend as well and factor in his HOF chances, right?

The 1988 USA squad had no NBA players, right?

So how is it comparable to 2004?

[JamStone]

I think something that needs to be remarked is that when JamStone says: "Well, they only lost to the Dream Team", and that's exactly what made that Argentinian core so special. It wasn't just the gold in Athens, but the fact that were able to:
1) Be the first team to beat Team USA since they started fielding NBA players
2) Be the first team that actually accomplished the feat twice

Ginobili was the leader of that core and the day he's enshrined in the HoF, it will be a recognition not only to him, but to that generation of players and their historical accomplishment.

I wasn't intimating that Argentina Olympic Gold medal team wasn't special. I was addressing a couple of points. First, people love to point out different outside factors to make a point but hate when similar arguments are made against their opinion. It's like hating when Laker fans asterisks the Spurs 1999 NBA le, but always pointing out when Tim Duncan isn't 100% in the playoffs with plantar fasciitis or whatever other ailment or how Manu wasn't healthy, etc.

It's always easy to use it if it helps your argument but even easier to discredit it if it goes against your argument.

Secondly, while I don't really discredit that Argentine Olympic gold medal, you cannot deny how weak that Team USA squad was in 2004. I believe 7 of the 12 players on that squad at the time hadn't even been all stars before. 5-6 of the best NBA players were missing from that squad. Three of the players who have later turned out to be among the best players on that squad in LeBron, Wade, and Carmelo didn't even get significant minutes in the Olympics.

Now say what you will, but that was a weak Dream Team. And, while I don't believe it means Argentina didn't deserve it, I do think people will remember how weak that Dream Team was. And, moreover, I don't think there's a Hade's chance in Ginobili and Argentina beat Team USA even once much less twice if they had even two of the following players on that squad: Jason Kidd, Kobe Bryant, Tracy McGrady, Kevin Garnett, Jermaine O'Neal. Pick any two of those. And, Team USA wins gold. My opinion.

Again, I made that post mostly in jaded response to how some people like to mention certain cir stantial factors when it helps their argument but discredit them when it hurts their argument. But, also realistically, I think it at least deserves mention.

[Josepatches_]

That's arguable. In 1992, Kukoc has just won his third straight Mr. Europa Player of the Year award. He had won the European Championship MVP a year earlier in 1991. He was already a two time Euroscar Player of the Year award winner and two time Euroleague Final Four MVP winner. He was widely considered the best European player period, much less the best player on Croatia's team. There's no doubt that Drazen was also a European superstar in his own right. It was quite the luxury for Croatia to boast a couple superstar players, even after the Yugoslavian split.

But, I think it's still only arguable at best. Kind of like 23 year old LeBron and 29 year old Kobe on the 2008 Olympic squad. Can easily argue Kobe in his prime was the best player on that team. But the flipside saying LeBron was the best player on that team despite being only 23 had just as much merit.

Sabonis and Petrovic were considered the best european players until guys live Nowitzki,Gasol or Parker arrived.

I don't know where you live but here in Spain there is no doubt about.Kukoc had a lot of talent but Petrovic and Sabonis were better.

[ElNono]

Everything is arguable. Even the fact that NBA players simply were not used to the international game. Tell you more, Jason Kidd was invited to play in 2002 Worlds, but he was injured and couldn't play and Jermaine O'Neal was actually part of that team (alongside other guys like Finley and Pierce). That's not Argentina's fault though. And I'm pretty sure no sane person thought they could beat THAT team USA before the game started either.

Again, what that group did was historical for basketball, and I think Manu will be recognized by the Hall in due time as a symbol of that team's accomplishment.

[JamStone]

The 1988 USA squad had no NBA players, right?

So how is it comparable to 2004?

Did you read what post that was in response to?

That sure sounds an awlful lot Like Phil Jackson's comments on the Spurs championship in 99 needing an asterisk put alongside their le because of the shortened season that year. Pretty lame IMO. An championship, or a Gold Medal is still quite an accomplishment, no matter how you win, or who the compe ion is.

[JamStone]

Kukoc was really good but not true.Drazen was.Petrovic was in another level.

Again, still only arguable. By 1992, Kukoc had established himself as the best European player. But I concede it's debatable. But it's debatable like the argument that "LeBron has been better than Kobe since around 2007/2008" is debatable.

By 1992, Kukoc had already won the Euroscar POY twice, Mr. Europa POY three times, European Championship MVP once, and FIBA World Championship MVP once (when he was on the same team as Drazen in 1990). Doesn't mean Drazen wasn't in the conversation. But, I absolutely will challenge that Drzen was on another level in 1992.

[JamStone]

Sabonis and Petrovic were considered the best european players until guys live Nowitzki,Gasol or Parker arrived.

I don't know where you live but here in Spain there is no doubt about.Kukoc had a lot of talent but Petrovic and Sabonis were better.

My contention that Kukoc was the better player by 1992 does not mean Drazen wasn't incredible or wasn't one of the greatest European players ever. By 1992, Toni Kukoc had already established himself as the premier European player even at his young age at the time.

I think legend has a way of not always doing history justice. But, I won't challenge your personal opinion from your point of view as a European that Sabonis and Petrovic are considered better. But I do challenge that by 1992 that Petrovic was on another level than Kukoc. By 1992, I don't believe that was the case any more.

I don't live in Europe, never have. I live in the USA.

[exstatic]

I think the international resume gives him a very good shot but it's still probably debatable. I think the Hall would do well to include him, as well as a guy like Vlade Divac.

Look at Drazen Petrovic's resume. Their Euro and FIBA careers are comparable, and sadly, because Drazen's NBA career was cut short by his death, Manu's NBA resume is better.

He's as stone cold a lock as Tim or Kobe.

[RuffnReadyOzStyle]

is manu a hall of famer i say yes in my opinion he is better than tim and tony it seems like people still take him forgranted

Yes, IMHO, Manu is a Hall of Famer. No other player has won NBA, Euroleague, World Championships and Olympics.

As for "is better than Tim", GTFO!

[blkroadrunners]

Have yall seen some of the players in the HoF? For the most part, it's a joke. Manu's well ahead of most of the players - he should be a lock.

[hitmanyr2k]

Manu Ginobili will be in the HOF. Maybe not first ballot but he'll be there eventually for his overall career. As for the comparison to Kukoc, I think Ginobili's game adjusted a lot better from Europe to the NBA. Kukoc was a great European player but in the NBA not even a borderline all-star and his playoff performances don't come close to what Ginobili did for the Spurs.

[DubMcDub]

Manu is not a HoFer. He would be one if they considered international play along with NBA success. But they don't, and despite his 3 championships and his incredibly clutch play at times, he doesn't pass the smell test.

[hitmanyr2k]

Manu is not a HoFer. He would be one if they considered international play along with NBA success. But they don't, and despite his 3 championships and his incredibly clutch play at times, he doesn't pass the smell test.

[DubMcDub]

Who's the last marginal HoF player who was given the nod because of international success?

[jjktkk]

My contention that Kukoc was the better player by 1992 does not mean Drazen wasn't incredible or wasn't one of the greatest European players ever. By 1992, Toni Kukoc had already established himself as the premier European player even at his young age at the time.

I think legend has a way of not always doing history justice. But, I won't challenge your personal opinion from your point of view as a European that Sabonis and Petrovic are considered better. But I do challenge that by 1992 that Petrovic was on another level than Kukoc. By 1992, I don't believe that was the case any more.

I don't live in Europe, never have. I live in the USA.

Okay, I'll throw out what Kukoc and Ginoboli accomplished for their respective NBA teams and countries. Just comparing Ginoboli and Kukoc side by side, I can honestly say that Ginoboli is a better overall player. Ginoboli is just as good of passer and facilitator, in fact, I give Ginoboli the edge there. Ginoboli is a more consistant scorer, and a better defender than Kukoc. And IMO what really seperates Ginoboli from Kukoc is Ginoboli's compe ive fire, his will to win. While Kukoc was a pretty good player, I'd definitely give Ginoboli the edge.

[ElNono]

Who's the last marginal HoF player who was given the nod because of international success?

Dino Meneghin?
Drazen Petrovic?
Hortencia de Fatima Marcari?
Kresimir Cosic?
Uljana Semjonova?
Sergei A. Belov?

Some of those didn't even have an NBA career...

[poop]

Manu is one of the greatest all-round basketall players of all time.

[DubMcDub]

Dino Meneghin?
Drazen Petrovic?
Hortencia de Fatima Marcari?
Kresimir Cosic?
Uljana Semjonova?
Sergei A. Belov?

Some of those didn't even have an NBA career...

My concern is those guys were all defined primarily (sometimes exclusively) as international players. I have some su ion that HoF voters will see Manu primarily as an NBA player and will give short-shrift to his external accomplishments. As I understand it, the BBall HoF utilizes separate screening committees for NBA Players and Int'l Players. My opinion was that Manu will be classified as the former and his endeavors in the latter will not be heavily considered, although that may be a misunderstanding of the screening mechanisms on my part.

That said, looking at your list, I feel I stand corrected. You make a great point. He's got a great shot if those guys can all make it.

[duhoh]

let's see:

olympic gold medal
euroleague les
nba les

better resume than most nba players. it's a wrap.

[jjktkk]

My concern is those guys were all defined primarily (sometimes exclusively) as international players. I have some su ion that HoF voters will see Manu primarily as an NBA player and will give short-shrift to his external accomplishments. As I understand it, the BBall HoF utilizes separate screening committees for NBA Players and Int'l Players. My opinion was that Manu will be classified as the former and his endeavors in the latter will not be heavily considered, although that may be a misunderstanding of the screening mechanisms on my part.

That said, looking at your list, I feel I stand corrected. You make a great point. He's got a great shot if those guys can all make it.

I highly doubt that the HOF voters will overlook Ginoboli's accomplishments to his National team. If anything Ginoboli's Olympic achievements will enhance his entry into the HOF. To help his Argentinian Team, whose country's #1 sport is soccer, win a gold medal in basketball, is a huge success IMO.