Manu is a lock mainly because it is a Basketball HOF and not NBA only.
His international resume makes it a lock by those standars.
But he has also lead a change in some NBA paradigms that will make him more of a lock also.
He has been an ambasador of international players and since his arrival the door really opened, as before him, there where almost no NBA stars drafted oversees that were not known in the US (Gasol and Nowitzky where quite hyped when they were drafted).
The other thing he changed was the common thought that FIBA players didn't defend and only shoot 3's, the role for FIBA guards has been increased sice his arrival and scouters are looking for Manu like players around the world.
As of last, not to everyone, but many NBA fans and reporters believe he has redefined what is to be a star, not basing his game on his stats, rather than doing all he can to help the team, weather it is to score 30, run the team, defend, block shots, rebounds or start off the bench, letting others shine for the good of the team.
I think that is what would be written about him below his photos in the Hall of Fame in a few years.
Drazen Petrovic. Go to the HoF site and check his profile. Their international careers were parallel, with Drazen getting FIBA WC gold and Olympic Silvers and Manu getting Olympic gold and WC silvers. They both won Euro league championships, and each had one 3rd team All NBA selection. Manu had a more complete NBA career because Drazen's was cut short by his unfortunate death in a car crash.
Drazen's profile
Last edited by exstatic; 03-18-2010 at 07:16 AM.
Basketball HoF have the same committee for everyone, and is roundly chided for often devaluing NBA accomplishments.
SCREENING COMMITTEES
There are four Screening Committees: 1. North American; 2. Women; 3. Veterans (an individual whose career ended 35 years before his/her current consideration); and 4. International.
HONORS COMMITTEE
The purpose of the Honors Committee is to review carefully a candidate's basketball record before casting a vote in favor of Enshrining the person into the BHOF. There are 24 people on each of the four Honors Committees. They include Hall of Famers, basketball executives, media members and other contributors to the game. A core group of 12 people sit on all four committees. Twelve specialists are then added to the International Committee while 12 others are added to the Women's Committee. Twelve other specialists review both the Veterans Committee and the North American Committee. These specialists have an intimate understanding of the specific category of play considered by their committee. A person needs a minimum of 18 votes from an Honors Committee to be Enshrined into the BHOF.
http://www.hoophall.com/enshrinement-process/
JamStone,
Olympics MVP didnt exist until Manu made it exist. Its the only time the award was given. See here:
http://archive.fiba.com/pages/eng/fa...n/history.html
That is an official FIBA site.
As for the argument about the 04 team being the most watered down "dream team" ever, there is a plausible argument for that. The fact that they lost is in and of itself the most damning evidence. However...
-1) Wade played a few minutes less than pepe sanchez for the tournament (argentina's starting PG and first NBA player). James, Amare and Melo didn't get much time, but they did play about the minutes that Delfino and Hermann played for Argentina. are delfino/hermann > amare, LBJ, melo?? is pepe sanchez > dwade? of course not. should they have played more minutes? probably. But if they are getting out played by scrubs is that larry brown's fault? My point is that they did play, and that other teams had much worse players playing those minutes. Odom, Marion, Boozer, Marbury, perhaps didnt have the top billing of stars (that you mentioned) like Garnett, JO, Tmac, Kidd; but then did Oberto, Scola, Nocioni and Wolkowyski have any kind of billing? Also I'll remind you that JO played for the 02 team and got spanked by Scola in that game, and that Tmac and I believe Ray allen both pulled out of 04 because they were scared of a terrorist attack. Seriously though, if you are going by reputation/billing, before the tournament the US was the clear favorite, even despite the 02 WC. Nobody was saying "the US is going to lose because Duncan, Boozer and Odom wont be able to handle Oberto and Scola, and sanchez, ginobili and nocioni are going to run circles around iverson, marbury and jefferson."
and 2) Croatia/Yugoslavia are a perennial powerhouse that is almost always stacked. Argentina's only success was in the first tournament (that we hosted), without doubt the most amateur of all the amateur compe ions. Argentina even had players on the team that played in the domestic league, which is several rungs below even weaker european leagues. in HOF terms, absolute nobodies.
So you add those two together and what I'm trying to say is that, the US didnt send their "best" (according to perceptions) dream team, but they also didnt lose to their "best" (according to perceptions) rival. That tournament changed a lot of perceptions in the basketball world.
Even if you consider Manu's and Kukoc's international CVs similar, Manu's NBA accomplishments are far superior to Tony's.
That is what I had in mind when i said that Kukoc's resume doesn't have what it takes to be named next to Manu's... If Manu would have stayed in Europe more time his resume there would be as impressive as I'm sure...
NBA? that's a man's league... from there Manu's contribution and s om there took him to heights Kukoc never had...
You can't have it both ways.
Pretty much everyone who believes Ginobili will go to the HOF will do so based on the merits of his international career and not because of his NBA career. If that's the case, then you look at Kukoc's international career and his is as if not more impressive than Manu's. You can't make an addendum argument that Manu's NBA career was better when the initial argument for Manu being a HOF is based on his international career. Most even agree that on his NBA career alone, Manu would not be a HOF. Don't add that into the equation to make a distinction when that's not why Manu could be in the HOF.
And you cannot argue that had Manu stayed in Europe, his resume would be as impressive as Kukoc because they both came to the NBA at the same age, 25. Poor argument.
Still better than yours claiming that the 2004 US Olympics squad had 2 superstars and a bunch of scrubs...
even if that's the case, Argentina had a second tier star leading a bunch of scrubs over them for the second consecutive time on an international big tournament...
Not really.
Really.
So how many years Kukoc played in Europe and how many years did Ginobili play there?
If I read it right, Manu played professionally 3 years in Argentina, then 4 years in Euroleague before joining the NBA. And Kukoc played 6 years in Euroleague before joining the NBA.
So two more years for Kukoc in Euroleague. Manu had one more year playing pro basketball with his 3 years in Argentina.
He didn't win anything on his pro career in Argentina so that one more year experience in a weaker league doesn't count. Is like counting Kukoc's non professional experience or in non Eurolegue clubs too.
so back where we were... Kukoc DID play more years in the Eurolegue than Manu...
Yes, Kukoc played two more years in Euroleague than Manu.
So Manu didn't win anything in a weaker league in three years?
Cool.
If Manu were born in USA, this questions doesn´t make any sense. Or if he had played for the Lakers or the Knicks.
Or if his NBA averages were 30 PPG / 15 RPG / 12 APG and he was awarded 5 League MVPs. Then it wouldn't make sense either.
CROFL
Question for ya Jam... what did Kukoc win before arriving to the Euroleague?
and BTW: Manu won Rookie of the year among other individual accolades on both the Argie league and international Junior compe ion... just did not lead a team to win it all at age 17...
Drazan Petrovis is in HOF with this Career Highlights
Silver Medal in 1988 (Yugsolavia) and 1992 (Croatia) Olympic Games
Gold Medal in World Championships with National Team, 1990
Named Sportsman of the Year in his native Croatia, 1985, 1986, 1988
All-NBA Third-Team, 1993
Manu´s accomplishments are far greater than those ....IMHO
As the poster below you pointed out, this is incorrect.
Yes, IMO Kukoc should be in the HoF.
I wouldn't say that but Manu is clearly > KukocReally? Are you thinking Kukoc doesnt deserve to be in the same sentence with manu too?
Besides you were the one that started the "you can't compare player "X" with player "Y" talk.
If you really think that Manu can't be compared to Kukoc and Divac, then like I said, you don't know anything about Manu.
Why? do you think that Manu's NBA career is worthy of the HoF?
Yes. His Yugoslavian Junior National team won the World Junior Championship in 1987. In the championship game against Team USA's Junior National team, Toni hit 11 three-pointers. Toni was 18 at the time.
Good info.and BTW: Manu won Rookie of the year among other individual accolades on both the Argie league and international Junior compe ion... just did not lead a team to win it all at age 17...
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