Long version-
You are full of ing . You don't know how Landry played as a rookie (he was welded to the bench for the first few months after being on the bubble to make the team due to a poor preseason performance) and your take on Hill is silly. He has put up good numbers in his minutes with the Rockets and his defense has been credible (five blocks against the Celtics). He is steadily playing more minutes and giving more production. There is no hint of bust there considering where he was drafted and the expectations people had of him. It's ing absurd to suggest otherwise.
Short version- you don't know about . Stop posting.
FWIW:
Chris Bosh 2003-2004 per 36 minutes
10.2 shots a game for 46%, 4 free throws /g at 70%, 8 rbds (2.7 or), 12 points, 1.1 ast, .9 stl. 1.5 blk
Amare Stoudemire 2002-2003 per 36 minutes
11.6 shots a game for 47%, 7 free throws /g at 67%, 10 rbds (3.5 or), 15 points, 1ast, 1stl, 1.2 blk
Jordan Hill 2009-2010 per 36 minutes
12 shots a game at 46%, 4 free throws /g at 70%, 10 rbds (4.6 or), 14 points, 1 ast, 1 stl, 1.2 blk
courtesy of larsv8
Last edited by Kai; 03-22-2010 at 10:12 AM.
Here are the highlights of Hill's last 2 games for those of you who want to see what all the fuss is about:
Fixed. Do you want me to go on? Because I can, like forever.
FWIW:
Chris Bosh 2003-2004 per 36 minutes
10.2 shots a game for 46%, 4 free throws /g at 70%, 8 rbds (2.7 or), 12 points, 1.1 ast, .9 stl. 1.5 blk
Amare Stoudemire 2002-2003 per 36 minutes
11.6 shots a game for 47%, 7 free throws /g at 67%, 10 rbds (3.5 or), 15 points, 1ast, 1stl, 1.2 blk
Jordan Hill 2009-2010 per 36 minutes
12 shots a game at 46%, 4 free throws /g at 70%, 10 rbds (4.6 or), 14 points, 1 ast, 1 stl, 1.2 blk
Josh McRoberts 2007-2008 per 36 minutes
12.9 shots per game at 60%, 12.9 rbds (2.6 or), 15.4 points, 2.6 ast, 1.3 stl
Aaron Gray 2006-2007 per 36 minutes
11.9 shots a game at 50%, 6 free throws /g at 57%, 15.5 points, 9.9 rbs (4.1 or), 2.4 ast, 1.2 stl, 1 blk
Shelden Williams 2006-2007 per 36 minutes
9 shots a game at 47%, 3.4 free throws /g at 77%, 11 points, 10.3 rbds (3.1 or), 1 ast, 1.2 stl, 1 blk
Johan Petro 2005-2006 per 36 minutes
9 shots a game at 51%, 2.1 free throws /g at 62.7%, 10 points, 8.3 rbds, 0.5 ast, 1 stl, 1.5 blk
Josh Boone 2005-2006 per 36 minutes
9.2 shots a game at 58%, 6 free throws /g at 55%, 16 points, 9.5 rbds, 0.5 ast, 1 stl, 1 blk
courtesy of larsv8 & Mogrovejo
Some people here have a way to discredited their own point that goes beyond radical masochism...
(and LOL @ the X shots a game... per 36 minutes).
It's 7 assists, for Pete's sake. How hard is this to understand? Heck he got 7 assists in 173 minutes for Houston but he got 5 in under 80 minutes for the Knicks (check his 9 games in December and January). Ha! He actually got worse since December!
Jeffries is a fringe rotation player pretty much like Hill is at this point. He's a very good defender. I know this because I've actually seen Jeffries playing, tons of minutes, and I'm not basing my assessment in a dozen minutes in a random game in March.
And btw, Jeffries was the guy delivering the win for the Rockets in NY with his huge defensive plays down the stretch. He stopped the Knicks from scoring in multiple possessions all by himself.
I think you are taking this argument all wrong.
All those PHX posters are arguing is that:
A) Jordan Hill will be a better player than Jared Jeffries, actually he already is a better player.
B) D'antoni said he doesn't play bad rookies/bad players. Yet he plays jared jeffries.
C) All discussion on how good or bad jordan hill will be is stupid, cuz you can't predict the future. But if you wanted to try to predict it, analyzing the past is the best way; Which is why PHX fans would have more knowledge than yourself considering they've seen him play more.
D) You'd think if d'antoni just straight up hated Jordan Hill, he would have him traded, and how can the knicks get anything for value for hill if you never see him play, unless he doesn't care bout the knicks future, which would make him a crappy coach.
E) Marcin Gortat averages less points and rebounds than hill, yet we know he's got what it takes to be a starting C, Orlando paying him 35 mil. or something.
so in conclusion, your neither wrong nor right bout Jordan Hill, but i'll say your closer to wrong though.
hence the "FWIW"
Well let's put it this way, your comparing a 30 year old jeffries with a 23 year old Hill.
As of now, Hill's got him beat in most of the stats in almost the same amount of minutes.
But your argument is on defense, where there is really no good stat for it, blocks don't count really as it's a useless defensive stat, for me at least.
Ok, right now, sure maybe jeffries is better on defense, but you gotta remember that the knicks at the time are like 25th in that category. Worse case scenario putting hill instead of jeffries you go down to 27th or 28th worse in that category, big whoop, knicks don't own their pick and they ain't gna reaching playoffs w/out lebron neway. So why not at least play Hill so the fan at least sees or perceives the organization actually is trying to win, rather than play it's "Veterans".
D'antoni could at least have done it for the fans considering the chances of Hill staying in Knicks SHOULD be higher than jeffries staying with the Knicks, so if your gonna argue D'antoni is doing it so the team will gel more, that argument went out the window.
Also remember Hill is 23 and jeffries is 30, whose to say hill won't be better or as good as jeffries when he's that age.
Just like durant is gna improve on D the older he gets.
i havent been watching hill's game so i dunno.. but for d'antoni to say such a thing.. that's pretty childish..
lest he forgets.. hill is a human being trying to make a career out of this.. why deny him an opportunity? i mean.. also.. if he's such a bad rookie why'd you draft him #8 overall?
smh
9:42 94-98 Al Harrington offensive foul (Jared Jeffries draws the foul)
9:06 96-98 Al Harrington personal foul (Jared Jeffries draws the foul)
5:41 103-106 Al Harrington offensive foul (Jared Jeffries draws the foul)
3:57 107-109 Jared Jeffries blocks Tracy McGrady's 20-foot jumper
2:29 107-110 Toney Douglas offensive foul (Jared Jeffries draws the foul)
0:49 114-110 Toney Douglas offensive foul (Jared Jeffries draws the foul)
0:03 116-110 Jared Jeffries blocks David Lee's 25-foot three point jumper
Maybe he's better on defence? Maybe? Again, Jeffries delivered the win for the Rockets yesterday.
You should re-read the thread. What people are arguing is that D'Antoni hindered Hill's development by not playing him more, unlike Adelman.
Jesus, Hill is one of the multiple rookies that has trouble getting playing time in his first season because he's so raw than minutes on the floor are more likely to hurt than to help him.
If people have emotional problems with D'Antoni, take them to the psychiatrist.
This is the what this fuss is all about. This is why pretty much every coach in the NBA is criticized by not liking to play rookies - from Doc Rivers to Popovich, from D'Antoni to Nelson, from Kuester to Jim O'Brien.
Fans love and overrate young players. It's as simple as that.
In order for him to develop, he has to play
That was undoubtedly Walsh who drafted Hill, not D'antoni. D'antoni was never a fan of using draft picks. He was head coach of the Suns for 4 drafts (2004, 2005, 2006, 2007). #7 overall pick in 04 was traded for cash considerations and a 2005 first rounder. The 2005 pick they traded for was then traded a year later as a throw in in a trade just because they didn't want to have to use the pick. In 2006, the year D'antoni was Coach and GM, they had two first round picks, and sold them both and afterwards D'antoni said he had no interest in drafting young players. In 2007, they again had two picks, sold the first one, and used the 2nd one simply because a rule prevents teams from trading their pick two years in a row. Since D'antoni left, the Suns have used every pick they had. That's not coincidence.
interesting tho.. barbosa played significant minutes as a rookie under d'antoni.. and what about his relationship with galinari? galinari made it clear he wanted to play for d'antoni..
or maybe hill said something bad to d'antoni in the start of the season, or maybe wrong first impression, all we're doing is theorycrafting.
Nobody knows why hill didn't play more with the knicks, if we are to believe what D'antoni says, and btw you can't trust half the you read in the media cuz there are two sides to the equation, ALWAYS.
BUT, what we do know is that Hill is getting a chance to play in Houston, and he isn't doing that bad at all, actually he's doing pretty decent SO FAR, a full 82 game season will be the real test of how good he will be.
That's your opinion on hill, which may or may not be the right one, whose to say that such a raw player like hill wouldn't benefit from more play time. But whatever the case, he doesn't seem to be dumb rookie mistakes, YET, he might hit the rookie wall in a couple of games, but if you never let him start running, how he gonna hit that wall?
Like I said, it would be like me comparing lebron now and durant now, compare them at least based on their rookie level for a more realistic comparison.
Jeffries has been in the league for what? 7 years? whose to say Hill won't be better or as good as jeffries after 7 years?
Like I said, if your on a contender, it kinda makes sense not to play the rookies, since it might ruin chemistry and etc... you might lose important games and etc... That's fine.
But when your on a crappy team, and you still not playing your rookies, instead your playing your scrubby vets, then that's on the coach.
if your vets are 30+ years old, your rookies are 20+ years old, your team is lottery bound, and you don't play your rookies? Your a complete dumbass. At least develop your young players chemistry, so that next year you stand a better chance at more wins.
Carl Landry rookie year- 24 years old
Jordan Hill rookie year- 22 years old
Room to grow, don't you think?
Also Hill is already a better rebounder than Landry.
Most basketball coaches don't agree with this. I don't. Playing unready players at any given level may hurt more than help their development. Young players tend to develop bad habits in those situations. Then it takes a lot of work to break down those bad habits.
Honestly, have you never thought why this kind of complain is so common? We're talking here about D'Antoni and Hill but I can give you, and I kid you not, hundreds of examples, from the NBA and European basketball. Have you never wondered "hey, if so many coaches are reticent to play rookies even when they have nothing to lose maybe, just maybe, there is no linear relation between playing time and the development of the player"?
And I'm not even addressing the fact that, unlike most fans like to think, the priority of NBA head-coaches is not to develop young players, even in the late part of lost seasons.
I'll never understand why there aren't more people following the D-League.
Spanoulis as a rookie has something to say about playing time..lol
i honestly doubt that the head coach is really in charge of developing young players. I attribute 10% of a players development to the head coach, it's not like the coach has so much time to sit down and talk with all his players and make sure their playing to the best of their abilities. That's why a coaching staff has so many members in it because there is only so much one man can do.
BUT I do agree that increasing ones playing time increases a players development. Now here is the thing, you really have to analyze the word development, does it mainly mean, more minutes played, better level of play? Not really, let's analyze this further.
I'm assuming you've played ball before in an organized league of some sort, cuz you seem to know your stuff, so let's look at this from that perspective.
Unless you have a big ego, or your lebron james, as a rookie, you know your only going to get a certain amount of minutes, and that's fine, as long as they are consistent minutes, minutes you feel you can showcase to the coach and to your team how well you can play.
When your not getting those minutes, everything sags, not just production. The stats that you see, is a combination of confidence, skill and playing time. When your going from 13 minute one game, 6 minute in garbage time another, to DNP-CD's your never going to develop a rhythm, offensively or defensively.
Also not every NBA player is so mentally strong that they don't mind being the 5-10 minute guy, and just bring that energy all the time, regardless if it's for 2 minutes or 20 minutes. More consistent playing time just lends itself to the player psyche making them better basketball player.
Bottom line, some players need playing time to develop offensively and defensively due to either their limitations mentally, team cohesion and etc...
On a basketball team, sometimes only the good players get acknowledgment, while some bench players never are "good/cool" enough to merit praise from their teammates. And let's not kid ourself, NBA players like other players want to be praised by their teammates, it builds team chemistry when everyone's closer to each other, and when your team is not as talented as other teams, team chemistry goes a long way in securing a few wins, you'd normally not win.
Also i'd like to point out players who deserve playing time, but completely suck when they don't have the ball in their hands. Two come to mind immediately, dwight howard and andrew bynum, the minute they are not getting touches, defense and offense start sucking, same thing when their in foul trouble, this might be because their mental midget, or it might be because they never get into a rhythm in a game.
mogrovejo, I tend to agree with a lot of what you have to say about responsibilities and development. You seem to know what you're talking about. That being said, it doesn't seem as though you have really watched all that much of Jordan Hill since he has joined the Rockets, which coincidentally, is the only time I've watched him.
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