Hate this steaming turd of a bill? Blame Bush

[MiamiHeat]

I am independent and I hate this ty bill

Why the do they think they have a right to FORCE ME TO BUY SOMETHING JUST FOR BEING ALIVE?

CAR INSURANCE = IF I WANT TO DRIVE. DON'T WANT TO DRIVE? No need for insurance

but being ALIVE = PAY up or be fined?

How the does this make any sense?

and if I don't pay into the system, I GET FINED AND POSSIBLE JAIL TIME?

FUCING EXTORTION

PAY UP OR YOU WILL BE PROSECUTED AND FINED???

THIS TY BILL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I will support any peoples who go appeal this piece of Obama bill and fight this mandate to buy insurance

[whottt]

Most of the people who hate this thing are just following the party line.

No I imagine most of the people that hate the thing hate it because they are going broke.

Seriously, I can tell you make a very good income by the fact that you are completely removed from this facet of our current reality.

I'm not saying there aren't reasons to dislike it, just that I don't believe most people understand those reasons, and once they start getting free , they will (as always) refuse to give it back.

Oh sure they do. They know very well who is going to feel the financial impact of this the most, and it's not going to be the wealthy, and it's not going to be the poor. It's going to be the people barely keeping their heads above water that feel it. They don't have $700 dollars a year to pay for some assholes health care.

They really don't have the money to pay it when the cost of everything else is rising, when credit card companies and the banking industry are raping people through direct business as well as taxes, when taxes are being added to cokes, and the price of food is rising, when unemplyment is rising and gas prices are rising.

The are 2 very detached segments of our poulation, that dont think things are much different than they have ever been before, the very rich, and the very poor.


And you are right people are going to take advantage of this, because every one is going to be trying to get theirs. It's not so much that people want it, as it is they want to get their moneys worth.

That is also why it is going to be quickly ed up. Because people are going to use it if it is there, they are going to use every bit of it.

There's a reason everyone says this will never be overturned.

False. This is going to be a contentious issue even moreseo than Iraq was. I can't think of a single time in my lifetime that one party so totally imposed it's will upon the other, and there will be reprecussions from it.

Not a single Republican voted for this bill. It was totally imposed by the Democrats.

That is not true of any civil rights legislation.
That is not true of any medicare or medicaid or any other types of welfare legislation.
It's not true of the Iraq War.


This is not business as usual.


It's one party completely imposing it's will upon the other, and I know everybody thinks it's over and done and now and the Republicans just to accept it and move on...and you need to remember those words, because when the Republicans get back in power gthey are going to be saying them a lot. And there is a not a single thing any Democrat will ever be able to say in oppisition and not be considered a total hypocrite.

This is only going to increase the partisanship in our politics. That wasn't really needed it at this point.

[SnakeBoy]

That's 32M potential Dem voters.

Doubtful, I would venture to guess most of those are politically irrelevant. 40%+ of the population doesn't bother to vote in presidential years, 60%+ in non presidential election years. November will be about whose base is more motivated. Will it be those who think this bill sucks but it's better than nothing or those who think armageddon is upon us?

[ploto]

The funny thing-Republicans have harped on Obama claiming he has not fulfilled his promises, but his biggest promise was health care reform. Now, they are pissed that he did it. He ran on this premise and he won, so why should he not get to pass his legislation? That is how it works. I admire his willingness to do it, even if it threatens his future election.

[ploto]

Not a single Republican voted for this bill. It was totally imposed by the Democrats.

Does that not more properly point to the partisanship of the Republicans?

[whottt]

Does that not more properly point to the partisanship of the Republicans?

The Republicans aren't the ones that just forced the entire country to accept their agenda. The Democrats are the ones that did that.

It's a historic first. One party passing legislation that will affect the lives of every American, while the other party unanimously opposed it.

And if I am this pissed off and I am likely to not have to pay a dime for it...you can imagine how the people that are barely staying above water as it is are feeling. And for a lot of Americans, like myself, health insurance is not a necessity.


I don't want any healthcare that isn't catastrophic, and I don't want their ing pills either.

You guys don't give a about bipartisanship, you give a about who just pwnt who. Remember that when the other shoe drops and it will drop unless you guys make it illegal to be Republican, which isn't out of the realm of possibility given the current climate of this country.

Just be sure to remember it was the Democrats that did it first.

[Spurminator]

No I imagine most of the people that hate the thing hate it because they are going broke.

I really don't think there are a lot of people who understand how this affects them in the least.

For example, the majority of the protesters on Obama's tax increase last year actually saw a reduction in their taxes. But they were told they should be mad about it and they'd be taxed to all , so they were mad about it.

Seriously, I can tell you make a very good income by the fact that you are completely removed from this facet of our current reality.

Not really. I don't make enough that my capital gains will be taxed to pay for this. I do make enough that it won't be subsidized for me, but that's fine. I have health insurance and will continue to have it past 2014 when this thing goes into full effect.

And I'm not convinced that my premiums will increase as a result of 32MM new buyers in the market for health insurance. If anything I could see this resulting in some pretty good deals offered by companies looking to attract customers. Compe ion and all. But I could be wrong, we'll see.

Oh sure they do. They know very well who is going to feel the financial impact of this the most, and it's not going to be the wealthy, and it's not going to be the poor. It's going to be the people barely keeping their heads above water that feel it. They don't have $700 dollars a year to pay for some assholes health care.

Depending on how poor they are, they may not have to pay for it at all.

I'm not a big fan of government-mandated expenditures towards companies but I'm also doubtful that anyone will go broke paying for it, because of the subsidies included in the bill. 4x the poverty level is a pretty healthy income when you look at average household incomes.

And you are right people are going to take advantage of this, because every one is going to be trying to get theirs. It's not so much that people want it, as it is they want to get their moneys worth.

That is also why it is going to be quickly ed up. Because people are going to use it if it is there, they are going to use every bit of it.

We'll see. Guess it depends on whether the experience is as miserable as some expect it to be.

False. This is going to be a contentious issue even moreseo than Iraq was. I can't think of a single time in my lifetime that one party so totally imposed it's will upon the other, and there will be reprecussions from it.

Not a single Republican voted for this bill. It was totally imposed by the Democrats.

That is not true of any civil rights legislation.
That is not true of any medicare or medicaid or any other types of welfare legislation.
It's not true of the Iraq War.

This is not business as usual.

It's one party completely imposing it's will upon the other, and I know everybody thinks it's over and done and now and the Republicans just to accept it and move on...and you need to remember those words, because when the Republicans get back in power gthey are going to be saying them a lot. And there is a not a single thing any Democrat will ever be able to say in oppisition and not be considered a total hypocrite.

Hey, if the Republicans can get the public on board with giving it all back, more power to them. It would be historically unprecedented, but what the ?

I see the Republican's unanimous opposition as a political certainty. They knew the vote count before the vote. There was no political benefit to voting in favor of the bill.

I also believe this is why there were as many Democrats in opposition as there were. It gives the Dems a sort of buffer in case voters decide to oust the proponents of this bill in November. Not sure how many of those 34 seats are up for election but I bet they're safe now.

This is only going to increase the partisanship in our politics. That wasn't really needed it at this point.

It's going to increase the partisan bickering, but bipartisanship in politics is long dead.

[Winehole23]

Solid take, Spurminator.

[Marcus Bryant]

It's not just that Bush set the stage through certain unpopular acts which turned the electorate against the GOP, but rather that he set it philosophically. Is it really that big of a "change" from the largest expansion of an en lement program in the Medicare drugs benefit and the most recently created en lement program? Bush and Rove bet on a new demarcation in national politics, drawn largely by social issues, and generally agnostic to hostile to limitations on the growth in scale and scope of the federal government when it suited the creation of a purported new conservative majority.

[whottt]

I really don't think there are a lot of people who understand how this affects them in the least.

For example, the majority of the protesters on Obama's tax increase last year actually saw a reduction in their taxes. But they were told they should be mad about it and they'd be taxed to all , so they were mad about it.

A tax raise on the very wealthy is a cost of living raise on the non-poor. One way or the other. You oversimplify and generalize what they were ing about, not all the people ing qualified. I just don't think you really understand that taxing the rich raises the cost of living and discourages job growth and investnment.

I am not wholly against ing the rich, in fact I quite like it in certain situations, but there is a time and a place to do it though.

Not really. I don't make enough that my capital gains will be taxed to pay for this. I do make enough that it won't be subsidized for me, but that's fine. I have health insurance and will continue to have it past 2014 when this thing goes into full effect.

Sure you will...I already said you aren't going to be impacted by this, that's why it doesn't bother you.

And I'm not convinced that my premiums will increase as a result of 32MM new buyers in the market for health insurance.

Yeah but you already have insurance anyway. Of course it's not going to affect you. What about the people that don't have it and are going to be in the penalty if they don't pay for it?

What about the people that lose their jobs because their employers don't want to pay this?

If anything I could see this resulting in some pretty good deals offered by companies looking to attract customers. Compe ion and all. But I could be wrong, we'll see.

It's going to devolve into a quality vs quan y situation. The government healthcare programs will continue to exploited and inefficient, and the rich people will still have viable alternatives that are much better. Basically exactly like it is now only the insurance companies are going to be much wealtheir now. Yay for them.

Depending on how poor they are, they may not have to pay for it at all.

I agree. In fact it's pretty much already better to be poor in this country than it is to be middle class. Basically the poor and the rich live better than anyone, the rich just have bigger houses.

That's why I myself an not particularly concerned with increasing my income. I like to call it romantically poor. And I don't even avail myself of government programs.

I'm not a big fan of government-mandated expenditures towards companies but I'm also doubtful that anyone will go broke paying for it, because of the subsidies included in the bill. 4x the poverty level is a pretty healthy income when you look at average household incomes.

And that's where I question just how in touch you are with this...they won't go broke paying for it? They are already going broke and this is just fuel on the fire.

We'll see. Guess it depends on whether the experience is as miserable as some expect it to be.

You notice you are one of the more cheerful and well balanced people on this forum right?

Paying 30% interest rates=miserable
Paying $10 for a movie=miserable
Auto insurance has always been miserable, that's why they had to make it mandatory. IF it wasn't miserable everyone would have rejoiced at the prospect of buying it.

Hey, if the Republicans can get the public on board with giving it all back, more power to them. It would be historically unprecedented, but what the ?

I see the Republican's unanimous opposition as a political certainty. They knew the vote count before the vote. There was no political benefit to voting in favor of the bill.

Depends on the Republican...I'd say you are right in most cases, they don't particularly care about this bill. That said, they weren't the ones that imposed it. IT is wholly and unilaterally the Democrats that did that.

[clambake]

i remember a time when you needed healthcare.

[whottt]

No you don't. You remember a time when the cost of medical care was already artificially inflated due to insurance companies. The supplies used cost about $100 to buy for general purposes.


Why do I get the feleling most Democrats were right there with Patrick Ewing when he said, sure we make a lot of money, but we spend a lot of money.

Because the medical profession, laywers and the insurance companies want the cost of medical care to be outrageous, let's go ahead and make paying for insurance mandatory. That'll teach 'em a ing lesson

[Spurminator]

A tax raise on the very wealthy is a cost of living raise on the non-poor. One way or the other. You oversimplify and generalize what they were ing about, not all the people ing qualified. I just don't think you really understand that taxing the rich raises the cost of living and discourages job growth and investnment.

I am not wholly against ing the rich, in fact I quite like it in certain situations, but there is a time and a place to do it though.

I mean correct me if I'm wrong but the only actual tax on individuals/households in this thing is a 0.9% increase on capital gains by HH's making $250K and individuals making $200K.

If that's going to freak the rich out then, yeah, them. Job growth will grow once they figure out they need more staff to perform the work that needs to be done for them to make profit, and investment will continue because it still makes you more money than keeping stacks of money under the mattress.

It's very easy to stay rich in this country. All you have to do in order to make money is, well, have a lot of money. Put it in investments, check your portfolio, and watch your money grow. Just check the news every once in a while. I'm not gonna go all Tea Party on a 1% increase to taxes on money made that way.

If there's any time and place to the rich, I think this qualifies. They'll still get the other 97.2% of the gains on their Berkshire Hathaway shares.

, I say raise capital gains taxes to 10% and end world hunger.

Yeah but you already have insurance anyway. Of course it's not going to affect you. What about the people that don't have it and are going to be in the penalty if they don't pay for it?

It makes me a little uneasy from a philosophical standpoint. On the other hand, you could see it as just another form of tax. Except here it's going directly towards your own health coverage, and you can choose where it goes and how much to pay for it. So in some ways it's preferable to a tax.

Like I said, I doubt anyone will go broke paying for this because of the subsidies in place. And it's not funding something that's going to harm them. So beyond the philosophical hesitation I have about government mandating participation in insurance, in the end I don't see a lot of adverse affects.

And that's where I question just how in touch you are with this...they won't go broke paying for it? They are already going broke and this is just fuel on the fire.

How? If they're broke they don't have to pay anything, and now they get "free" health care they couldn't afford before.

You notice you are one of the more cheerful and well balanced people on this forum right?

Paying 30% interest rates=miserable
Paying $10 for a movie=miserable
Auto insurance has always been miserable, that's why they had to make it mandatory. IF it wasn't miserable everyone would have rejoiced at the prospect of buying it.

I hope people who are paying for it do use it. It would do them some good, and the rest of us too. But while I'm sure there will be long waits in the beginning, I don't see people continuing to go in to wait hours for unnecessary treatment.

[exstatic]

I am independent and I hate this ty bill

Why the do they think they have a right to FORCE ME TO BUY SOMETHING JUST FOR BEING ALIVE?

CAR INSURANCE = IF I WANT TO DRIVE. DON'T WANT TO DRIVE? No need for insurance

but being ALIVE = PAY up or be fined?

How the does this make any sense?

and if I don't pay into the system, I GET FINED AND POSSIBLE JAIL TIME?

FUCING EXTORTION

PAY UP OR YOU WILL BE PROSECUTED AND FINED???

THIS TY BILL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I will support any peoples who go appeal this piece of Obama bill and fight this mandate to buy insurance

It's asshats like you without insurance who have to go to the Emergency Room for any issues that caused the Govt to ALREADY be paying 47% of health care dollars BEFORE this bill even passed. Who do you think picks up that $150 minimum tab when you can't pay?

[mavs>spurs2]

whottt you're an idiot quit trying to argue politics, you're wrong buddy

ps @ u crying to kori like a little baby hairless puss

[Wild Cobra]

That's 32M potential Dem voters.

Sure, if the 20 million illegals from them vote illegally...

[whottt]

whottt you're an idiot quit trying to argue politics, you're wrong buddy

ps @ u crying to kori like a little baby hairless puss

I never said a word to Kori about it. I just asked in the tech forum how to cut someone off your profile that you don't want there. And yes, I didn't want you there, because it was a contest of wills. That doesn't make me a pussy, it makes you obnoxious and a loser.

The funny is thing is you gave up your nuts to Kori awfully easy for someone intent on not leaving my page. Talking a lot of about it in fact.

If you weren't a pussy you would have taken a banning over it. As it was, she didn't even have to go beyond asking you nicely.

Never call anyone a pussy again.

[Cant_Be_Faded]

I will hold judgement until I hear MannyIsGod's take on this bill.

Theres so much wrong information out there I don't know what to believe until he sets the record straight.

[21_Blessings]

Suuuure, blame Bush for the Republicans not being able to get things done NOW. It's not his fault he had to focus on critics attacking his foreign and domestic policy on terror (in addition to always being made fun of because he wasn't the sharpest tool in the shed), maybe then he'd have had time to work on free market solutions AND saving wall street. People act like he just sat there and did nothing...he was a war President and don't you forget it!

Bush did sit there and do pretty much do nothing other than look like a guy you'd pound a beer with. Cheney was the brains behind the Imperialistic policy.

[Winehole23]

[whottt]

I mean correct me if I'm wrong but the only actual tax on individuals/households in this thing is a 0.9% increase on capital gains by HH's making $250K and individuals making $200K.

Um...I don't know what you consider that whole 2.5% annual income on uninsured families to be but it's either that or pay for the care. Tell me something, if it's not big deal then why in the is there a fee?


I don't see anything about what income level determines payment. I am assuming like you do that the poverty level is the line. I'm really going to be pissed if I find out I have to pay for this crap.

You refer to the costs on medicare expansion...not the same.

If that's going to freak the rich out then, yeah, them. Job growth will grow once they figure out they need more staff to perform the work that needs to be done for them to make profit, and investment will continue because it still makes you more money than keeping stacks of money under the mattress.

I don't think it's particularly going to freak them out. But one of my jobs is at UT and they have thousand of emplyees that totally over in every way imaginable(UT is manned by all the Republicans in Austin) I can tell you right now they are not ging to pay ing insurance for these people.

It's very easy to stay rich in this country. All you have to do in order to make money is, well, have a lot of money. Put it in investments, check your portfolio, and watch your money grow. Just check the news every once in a while. I'm not gonna go all Tea Party on a 1% increase to taxes on money made that way.

So it appears from your perspective.

If there's any time and place to the rich, I think this qualifies. They'll still get the other 97.2% of the gains on their Berkshire Hathaway shares.

Except we aren't ing the rich really. We're making them richer, and the ones we aren't are just going to do a little downsizing.

, I say raise capital gains taxes to 10% and end world hunger.

Wouldn't happen, we are biologically programmed to expand to fill any va . That's why there are 6 billion of us, precious resource that we are, now.

The way to end hunger is for us to get smarter. Evolve beyond our biological programming. It has nothing to do with money or insurance. Good luck with that.

It makes me a little uneasy from a philosophical standpoint. On the other hand, you could see it as just another form of tax. Except here it's going directly towards your own health coverage, and you can choose where it goes and how much to pay for it. So in some ways it's preferable to a tax.

Like I said, I doubt anyone will go broke paying for this because of the subsidies in place. And it's not funding something that's going to harm them. So beyond the philosophical hesitation I have about government mandating participation in insurance, in the end I don't see a lot of adverse affects.



How? If they're broke they don't have to pay anything, and now they get "free" health care they couldn't afford before.



I hope people who are paying for it do use it. It would do them some good, and the rest of us too. But while I'm sure there will be long waits in the beginning, I don't see people continuing to go in to wait hours for unnecessary treatment.

I don't have a doubt people are going to use it Spurm. Not a doubt. I also do not have a doubt it is going to be inefficient and exploited.

IF the government can't even run it's existing programs I don't know why you think are going to succeed with this monster.

Tell me, why do you think it's going to be different?

Do you think attorney's are suddenly going to stop viewing PI as a viable source of incrome?

Do you think corrupt people that already defraud our existing systems are going to suddenly stop being corrupt?

Do you think Doctors, Pharmaceuticals and medical engineering companies are all of a sudden going to decide they have enough money? Especially when there is so much of it right in front of their eyes?

And if they don't get it, you think the politicians aren't going to? Pick your party.

[mavs>spurs2]

I never said a word to Kori about it. I just asked in the tech forum how to cut someone off your profile that you don't want there. And yes, I didn't want you there, because it was a contest of wills. That doesn't make me a pussy, it makes you obnoxious and a loser.

The funny is thing is you gave up your nuts to Kori awfully easy for someone intent on not leaving my page. Talking a lot of about it in fact.

If you weren't a pussy you would have taken a banning over it. As it was, she didn't even have to go beyond asking you nicely.

Never call anyone a pussy again.

No, you didn't, Kori was all over that like a mother bear protecting her little cubs. You cried to her, because you were getting pissed off. I've already been banned a while back and don't feel like doing it again just yet. Not my fault you failed at life, im just here to point it out.

[FuzzyLumpkins]

There is a board being created to oversee insurance premium hikes and they are forcing transparency in insurance balance sheets and actuarial information. They are mandating 75% of all gross premium revenue be actually spent on medical claims. The current average 60% or so.

The above is exactly the reason why I keep mentioning the same system set up for P&C policies because it is empirical evidence of the above working.

I really wish people would actually discuss specifics instead of just blindly crying about socialism, corporate overlords and fearmongering about nonexistent future legislation.

[whottt]

There is a board being created to oversee insurance premium hikes and they are forcing transparency in insurance balance sheets and actuarial information. They are mandating 75% of all gross premium revenue be actually spent on medical claims. The current average 60% or so.

The above is exactly the reason why I keep mentioning the same system set up for P&C policies because it is empirical evidence of the above working.

I really wish people would actually discuss specifics instead of just blindly crying about socialism, corporate overlords and fearmongering about nonexistent future legislation.

I just want to be clear on this, you are an insurance agent, correct?

[FuzzyLumpkins]

I just want to be clear on this, you are an insurance agent, correct?

not anymore.