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  1. #76
    The Wemby Assembly z0sa's Avatar
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    I love a good debate, and in that spirit, I truly can accept the fact I'm wrong when I am indeed off base.

    So I have decided to put my theory to the test.

    While it's no guarantee of truth (or even an answer) coming from a paid puppet, I am emailing Activision about the price increase and inquiring specifically about the exponential amount of piracy and whether it had any effect on the change.

    Hopefully I get an answer, and one direct enough to base conclusions upon. I'll post both the email itself and its answer at the appropriate time.
    Last edited by z0sa; 03-18-2010 at 01:07 PM.

  2. #77
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Once again, more profit does not equal less cost - or cheaper, IYW. They are spending much, much more to develop game technology now than they did in the 80's - but their profit margin allows them to do this.
    Who are 'they'? It's not Activision, who is a publishing company. If anything, it's Infinity Ward, who sub-licensed tech from different companies to put the game together.

    What you're getting confused is in licensing costs vs development costs.

    A distinction I made in my very first post in this thread, and where I correctly pointed out that most of the incurred 'costs' where in sub-licensing tech because they didn't have it in-house.

    Our company is one of 'they'... We have developed and licensed video game technology for companies like Midway a few years back. Just last year we developed and licensed video game tech used on a mul ude of mobile video games.

    Quick trivia, do you know what arcade video game this source code header is from?
    Code:
    /*======================================================================*/
    /*		 LE:			KONG											*/
    /*		Function:		kong specific routines							*/
    /*																		*/
    /*		First Edit:		7/22/93											*/
    /*		Project #:		551xx											*/
    /*		Programmer:		Dennis Harper									*/
    /*																		*/
    /*				COPYRIGHT 1993/1994 ATARI GAMES CORP.					*/
    /*	  	UNAUTHORIZED REPRODUCTION, ADAPTATION, DISTRIBUTION,			*/
    /*	  	PERFORMANCE OR DISPLAY OF THIS COMPUTER PROGRAM OR				*/
    /*	  	THE ASSOCIATED AUDIOVISUAL WORK	IS STRICTLY PROHIBITED.			*/
    /*	  					ALL RIGHTS RESERVED.							*/
    /*																		*/
    /*----------------------------------------------------------------------*/
    I thought you were in the gaming industry? Someone in the industry would know:

    a) that prices for developing gaming and technology have skyrocketed exponentially since the 80's. In no way, shape, or form has developing games or their techs gotten cheaper.
    Wrong. The cost of licensing tech has increased, as it always has been a royalty. As the game market grew, so did the royalty to be paid.
    This is completely different from the cost of developing the actual underlying tech. The only thing that has grown is amount of content (which is different from the tech). But again, the costs associated with that also have gone down considerably over the years. It's a lot easier to find and hire game artists and the costs of things like motion capture have also gone down over time as the technology has improved and gotten cheaper.

    If you've got some links that demonstrate the contrary, feel free to show them. Otherwise, stop with the BS. Nothing you say can change a fact, regardless of your former employer.
    You need to start reading here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_engine
    Especially the 'History' and 'Recent trends' parts. I'll just highlight two portions from there:

    Later games, such as Quake III Arena and Epic Games's 1998 Unreal were designed with this approach in mind, with the engine and content developed separately. The practice of licensing such technology has proved to be a useful auxiliary revenue stream for some game developers, as a single license for a high-end commercial game engine can range from US$10,000 to millions of dollars, and the number of licensees can reach several dozen companies (as seen with the Unreal Engine). At the very least, reusable engines make developing game sequels faster and easier, which is a valuable advantage in the compe ive video game industry.

    Additionally, more game engines are being built upon higher level languages such as Java and C#/.NET (e.g. TorqueX, Blade3D, and Visual3D.NET) or Python (Panda3D). As most 3D rich games are now mostly GPU-limited (i.e. limited by the power of the graphics card), the potential slowdowns of higher level languages become negligible, while the productivity gains offered by these languages works to the game engine developers' benefit.[8][9] These recent trends are being propelled by companies such as Microsoft to support Indie game development on more platforms, such as Xbox360 and Zune using the .NET Framework and XNA for graphics and audio rendering. It is becoming easier and cheaper than ever to develop game engines for platforms that support managed frameworks.

    b) that DLC's are much, much cheaper to develop than an actual game, are generally never mass produced due to their very nature (downloadable content), yet cost consumers 15-20% of a full game's price. Since you receive profits from game sales, you should know popular DLC's reap much higher profits per unit in comparison.

    IOW, people downloading DLC actually is an area Activision can much easier live with. It's almost pure profit past the first 1000 downloads (estimate).
    No argument from me that DLC's have a higher ROI for the publisher. However, keep in mind users must already own the game in order to use it.

  3. #78
    The Wemby Assembly z0sa's Avatar
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    We're arguing semantics now..

  4. #79
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    We're arguing semantics now..
    lmao

  5. #80
    The Wemby Assembly z0sa's Avatar
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    Indeed, it's pretty laughable that you can't just say you're wrong instead of changing the entire context of our argument to make yourself right...

    Games are not cheaper, developing their engines is not cheaper, licensing them is not cheaper... if you want go on comparatively scaling them on profit margins or by cost of license, go ahead; that doesn't make the actual development costs of games in any way, shape, or form cheaper. I think I proved that with the $50 million MW2 costed BEFORE advertising..

    Games went from costing thousands to tens of millions. Don't know why it so difficult for you to understand why that does not fit the definition of "cheaper", especially when you respond with that in the argument you did..

    It is, indeed, arguing semantics at this point... you clearly said one thing in the context of my argument, now you change the context to fit your what you said.

    That's why I already told you I get the meaning behind your post, but you're still 100% wrong in the context you answered.
    Last edited by z0sa; 03-18-2010 at 02:38 PM.

  6. #81
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    If MW2 would have made only $50 million in revenues, as opposed to $550 millions, what you call 'development costs' would have been roughly $5 million, BEFORE advertising.

    For the exact same game. With the exact same engine. And the exact same content.

    That's why you never mix development costs with licensing costs. They're two completely unrelated things.

  7. #82
    The Wemby Assembly z0sa's Avatar
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    If MW2 would have made only $50 million in revenues, as opposed to $550 millions, what you call 'development costs' would have been roughly $5 million, BEFORE advertising.

    For the exact same game. With the exact same engine. And the exact same content.

    That's why you never mix development costs with licensing costs. They're two completely unrelated things.
    I grouped these things for simplicity.. this isn't anywhere near the argument I wanted, or want to partake in.. you seem honestly informed on the issues, even though dropping company names is lame as , which is why I say this is semantics.. we're arguing over the meaning of a piece of my argument that we both agree on, just have differing terminologies.

  8. #83
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    I grouped these things for simplicity.. this isn't anywhere near the argument I wanted, or want to partake in.. you seem honestly informed on the issues, even though dropping company names is lame as , which is why I say this is semantics.. we're arguing over the meaning of a piece of my argument that we both agree on, just have differing terminologies.
    And I've been pointing out since the get go that you're indeed using the wrong terminology. But you prefer to argue instead of simply learning.

    I have no problem with you believing whatever you want. But when you try to make an argument about my day to day business, and it's ass backwards, then I'm obviously going to attempt to correct you.
    It's not personal. I know it happens all the time with people that are simply not familiar with the ins and outs of this.

    I simply stand by my first post on this topic, which is the one that spurred this discussion. I think I was clear enough then:

    Nowadays, the most expensive parts of a AAA le is marketing and the cost of licensing 3rd party technology (Bink, Havoc, Unreal Engine, etc) for tech that you don't have in-house.

  9. #84
    The Wemby Assembly z0sa's Avatar
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    And I've been pointing out since the get go that you're indeed using the wrong terminology. But you prefer to argue instead of simply learning.
    The problem is with the context. It's easy to confuse someone, even if you're extremely "clear", when you don't pay attention to the context... it's also confusing when you start a totally different discussion without me knowing where you're going..

  10. #85
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    The problem is with the context. It's easy to confuse someone, even if you're extremely "clear", when you don't pay attention to the context... it's also confusing when you start a totally different discussion without me knowing where you're going..
    I apologize then, I'll try to be more clear the next time.

  11. #86
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    $15 for 5 maps. $3 a map is pretty average for DLC.

    A little map pack history

    Call of Duty: WaW map packs are $2.50 a map if you include the zombie map.

    Halo 3 Mythic map packs are $3.33 a map.

    Gears of War 2 map packs range from $2.14 - $3.33 a map.

    As I looked through other games, $3 a map is not some crazy horrible unheard of number that a lot of people are claiming it to be.
    And the great thing about DLC if you don't want to pay for it, THEN DON'T BUY IT.

  12. #87
    CDs Nuts. resistanze's Avatar
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    Aren't two of the maps ing recycled from MW1? You really think I should have to pay a premium for those?

    , all the songs I purchased from Rock Band were compatible for Rock Band 2. I know that's too much to ask from money-grubbers like Activision, but don't act like selling me old maps is doing anyone favors.

  13. #88
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    Aren't two of the maps ing recycled from MW1? You really think I should have to pay a premium for those?

    , all the songs I purchased from Rock Band were compatible for Rock Band 2. I know that's too much to ask from money-grubbers like Activision, but don't act like selling me old maps is doing anyone favors.
    Really your going to compare multiplayer maps to a music game? Again if you don't want to pay for it then don't buy it, are people really that stupid that they can't understand that?

  14. #89
    Poker Phenom. Heath Ledger's Avatar
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    Zosa your a load that should have been swallowed. That is all.

  15. #90
    CDs Nuts. resistanze's Avatar
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    Really your going to compare multiplayer maps to a music game? Again if you don't want to pay for it then don't buy it, are people really that stupid that they can't understand that?
    No if I don't like it I'm not going to pay for it, Captain Obvious. I'm pretty sure that's what most people in this thread said. People can express their opinion whether they think it's a rip-off or not -- it's a forum.

    Or according to you, I should just say "If you don't like our opinions, GTFO of this thead!"

  16. #91
    Texas Dragon TwAnKiEs's Avatar
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    In a Samara voice, " Seven days!!!!!!"

  17. #92
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    No if I don't like it I'm not going to pay for it, Captain Obvious. I'm pretty sure that's what most people in this thread said. People can express their opinion whether they think it's a rip-off or not -- it's a forum.

    Or according to you, I should just say "If you don't like our opinions, GTFO of this thead!"
    What a tool, I never said GTFO of this thread. You’re a moron that wants to complain about a map pack in a video game. Keep doing it, maybe if you do it enough people will care what your opinion is.

  18. #93
    CDs Nuts. resistanze's Avatar
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    What a tool, I never said GTFO of this thread.
    Yeah, you're really ing slow.

    You’re a moron that wants to complain about a map pack in a video game. Keep doing it, maybe if you do it enough people will care what your opinion is.
    You're complaining about people complaining about a map pack in a video game. Considering this thread was originally pointing out the outrageous price of the map pack, I don't know how you found yourself here.

    Why don't you just buy the map pack, off and be happy? This thread doesn't concern you by your own admission.

  19. #94
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    Yeah, you're really ing slow.


    You're complaining about people complaining about a map pack in a video game. Considering this thread was originally pointing out the outrageous price of the map pack, I don't know how you found yourself here.

    Why don't you just buy the map pack, off and be happy? This thread doesn't concern you by your own admission.
    What the is your reading comprehension really that bad?

    I never said you shouldn't complain about the map pack. I actually said the complete opposite "Keep doing it, maybe if you do it enough people will care what your opinion is."

    The thread is about the price of the map pack, I came in talking about the price of the map pack. That’s how I found myself here, if you can't follow that logic then I’m sorry you are really stupid.

    You think I want to buy a $15 map pack? If enough people don't buy it when it comes out then the price will drop. My original post made two points based on fact, the price per map is not the highest ever and if you don’t like it don’t buy it. Ok, point two is more advice but whatever.

  20. #95
    CDs Nuts. resistanze's Avatar
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    What the is your reading comprehension really that bad?

    I never said you shouldn't complain about the map pack. I actually said the complete opposite "Keep doing it, maybe if you do it enough people will care what your opinion is."

    The thread is about the price of the map pack, I came in talking about the price of the map pack. That’s how I found myself here, if you can't follow that logic then I’m sorry you are really stupid.

    You think I want to buy a $15 map pack? If enough people don't buy it when it comes out then the price will drop. My original post made two points based on fact, the price per map is not the highest ever and if you don’t like it don’t buy it. Ok, point two is more advice but whatever.
    You're obviously trying to disorient me with stupidity, so I'll just end it here.

  21. #96
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    You're obviously trying to disorient me with stupidity, so I'll just end it here.
    No, you are just a stupid tool who puts words in people's mouth when they didn't say them.

  22. #97
    No darkness Cry Havoc's Avatar
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    You think I want to buy a $15 map pack? If enough people don't buy it when it comes out then the price will drop. My original post made two points based on fact, the price per map is not the highest ever and if you don’t like it don’t buy it. Ok, point two is more advice but whatever.
    Actually you came into the thread attempting to disagree with those who are pissed off at the price.

    So no, you aren't really making sense with this huge about-face.

  23. #98
    A neverending cycle Trainwreck2100's Avatar
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  24. #99
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    Eh.. it's a little pricey, but then I think about Halo, which charges 10 bucks for three maps, and pretty much makes it mandatory to dload the maps if you want to play in any ranked games online...

    If MW2 makes those maps mandatory to play online, I'll be pissed.

  25. #100
    CDs Nuts. resistanze's Avatar
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    Actually you came into the thread attempting to disagree with those who are pissed off at the price.

    So no, you aren't really making sense with this huge about-face.
    Can't you read? He wasn't disagreeing with you, he was simply saying "don't buy it if you don't like it," in case that wasn't obvious enough.

    And he wasn't called you an idiot personally, just people who generally complain about the price of this map pack.

    Stop twisting his words.

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