Page 1 of 3 123 LastLast
Results 1 to 25 of 58
  1. #1
    keep asking questions George Gervin's Afro's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Post Count
    11,409
    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20100323/...aul_fact_check

    FACT CHECK: Spinning the new health care law

    Obama after health care bill: helped or hurt?


    AP – President Barack Obama waves in the East Room of the White House in Washington, Wednesday, March 23, … By RICARDO ALONSO-ZALDIVAR, Associated Press Writer Ricardo Alonso-zaldivar, Associated Press Writer – Tue Mar 23, 5:26 pm ET
    WASHINGTON – The tumultuous health care debate that brought you death panels and socialism has spun off a catalog of popular myths that will keep growing as President Barack Obama and all sides battle toward the midterm elections this fall.

    At a White House signing ceremony Tuesday, Obama ventured the hope that Americans on all sides will judge the legislation for what it actually says and does. "When I sign this bill," he declared, "all of the overheated rhetoric over reform will finally confront the reality of reform."

    Wishful thinking, Mr. President.

    Facts are stubborn, the saying goes. But myths about the legislation are likely to persist as well. And a lot of people don't agree on which is which.

    "People have taken away from the debate a number of beliefs about the bill that are very difficult to shake based on objective reports," said Robert Blendon, a Harvard public health professor who follows opinion trends. "There is enough skepticism out there that questions about how it's going to help the country are likely to continue."

    Here's a look at some of the myths and realities, from both sides of the issue:

    • Obama has put the nation on a slippery slope toward socialism.

    o? Government's role in health care has been steadily growing since Medicare and Medicaid were established 45 years ago. Even if Republicans were to take control of Washington and repeal this bill, government would still be on track to pick up more than half the nation's health care tab by 2012, according to a report last month from Medicare.

    "The Republican myth is that the government is for the first time going to take over the health care sector," said economist Joe Antos of the business-oriented American Enterprise Ins ute. "The takeover was probably largely accomplished in 1965 with the creation of Medicare and Medicaid. Since the early days, Medicare has called the shots on a lot of policy issues that private insurance fell in line with."

    Still, the new law will undoubtedly expand the government's influence. Sen. Judd Gregg, R-N.H., warned Tuesday it will lead to the "quasi-nationalization of the health industry."

    Underline "quasi." Democrats dropped their idea of a government insurance plan to compete with private carriers. So any "socialization" will be channeled through Wellpoint, UnitedHealthcare and other private insurance giants.

    • Health care overhaul is going to lower your health insurance premiums.

    Obama says that once new compe ive insurance markets open for business, in 2014, individuals buying coverage comparable to what they have today will pay 14-20 percent less. Family coverage costs about $13,400 a year, so that could be real money.

    But the president's assurance is based on a selective reading of a Congressional Budget Office report that found most individuals would probably buy better, more expensive coverage than what's available today.

    And Obama skips over an important caveat: The budget office didn't say premiums would be lower than currently. It said premiums for some people would be lower than they would have been without the bill. Premiums for others would be higher.

    With the U.S. population getting older, and medical science pushing the technological envelope, there's very little reason to think premiums will go down. The best Obama can hope for is to slow the pace of increases.

    • You will be forced to pay for other people's abortions.

    Only if you join a health insurance plan that covers abortion. In that case, the costs of paying for abortions would be spread over all the enrollees in the plan — no differently from how other medical procedures are handled, except a policyholder would have to write a separate check for it.

    Timothy Jost, a law professor at Washington and Lee University, said people who don't want to pay for abortion could simply pick a plan that doesn't offer it.

    There would definitely be a demand for such plans, and not just from people with moral objections. Single men and older women would have no reason to pay an extra premium for abortion coverage.

    • The Democratic bill will lead to government health care rationing.

    The legislation sets up a research center to compare the effectiveness of medical treatments, and critics fear that bureaucrats will start issuing justifications for denying patients access to the latest medical technology.

    Republicans as well as Democrats had previously called for a major investment in such research to help make sense of which kinds of treatments, medications and technologies are worth the cost.

    The legislation specifies that the research findings cannot be used to impose mandates, guidelines or recommendations for payment, coverage, or treatment — or used to deny coverage.

    Acceptance of the research is likely to be slow in coming, and the medical community — not government and insurance companies — will probably take the lead in vetting it.

    • The American people have already rejected Obamacare.

    Although some polls show a majority oppose the bill, most surveys find the public about evenly divided. Blendon, the public opinion expert, believes it's premature to say that the public has rejected it. Curiously, many individual components — doing away with insurance denials for pre-existing conditions, tax credits to help pay premiums, insurance purchasing pools — are widely popular.

    Obama reads those findings to mean that Democrats have a chance to turn around public opinion, and he's embarking on a campaign to sell the bill.

    • The legislation will save Medicare from bankruptcy.

    Democrats say the bill — even as it cuts Medicare to pay for expanded coverage for working families — will add at least nine years of solvency to the program's giant hospital insurance trust fund, now projected to be exhausted in 2017.

    Technically that's true — but only on paper.

    Savings from the Medicare cuts will be invested in government IOUs, like any other trust fund surplus. The special Treasury securities count as an asset on Medicare's books — making the program's precarious financial situation seem more reassuring. But the government will spend the actual money. And when time comes for Medicare to redeem the IOUs, lawmakers will have to scramble to come up with the cash.

    The key point is that the Medicare savings will be received by the government only once, the Congressional Budget Office said, "so they cannot be set aside to pay for future Medicare spending and, at the same time, pay for current spending ... on other programs."
    I will acknowledge that there are more good things than bad in this bill but for those who are counting on the public to not like this legislation..good luck with that.. I expect "they already do..polls show it..." with the bill being passed some of those people will actually find out what is in the bill beyond the rhetoric and find things they like about it.

  2. #2
    Scrumtrulescent
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Post Count
    9,724
    Savings from the Medicare cuts will be invested in government IOUs, like any other trust fund surplus. The special Treasury securities count as an asset on Medicare's books — making the program's precarious financial situation seem more reassuring. But the government will spend the actual money. And when time comes for Medicare to redeem the IOUs, lawmakers will have to scramble to come up with the cash.
    I know, I know. It's only medicare and we're all much happier just sticking our heads in the sand and pretending that there's nothing wrong with it. Still, for the select few people who actually do choose to acknowledge that something is amiss, the concept of Obama&Co funding the reform bill by turning medicare into a credit card should be sending up red flags. Just borrow half a trillion from medicare today, let someone else worry about how to pay it back later.

  3. #3
    Rising above the Fray spursncowboys's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jan 2009
    Post Count
    7,669
    last year every politician said medicare had to be reformed. So what happened?

  4. #4
    keep asking questions George Gervin's Afro's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Post Count
    11,409
    last year every politician said medicare had to be reformed. So what happened?
    you mean't the last 10 yrs right?

  5. #5
    Scrumtrulescent
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Nov 2006
    Post Count
    9,724
    last year every politician said medicare had to be reformed. So what happened?
    The same thing that always happens. The self serving politicians realized that handing out more "free stuff" on the taxpayers tab would buy them more votes than would telling the taxpayers that it was time to pay up.

  6. #6
    Hey Bruce... Lebron is the Rock Sec24Row7's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Post Count
    3,122
    Yahoo news has and always will be a liberal rag.

  7. #7
    Veteran EVAY's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Post Count
    7,563
    GGA, Thanks for the find and the posting. It is always refreshing to encounter a calmly presented clarification of facts.

    I know that some posters (e.g. 24-7) will find the presentation merits an ad hominem attack, but it is genuinely nice to find rationality in this discussion, and I thank you.

  8. #8
    keep asking questions George Gervin's Afro's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Post Count
    11,409
    GGA, Thanks for the find and the posting. It is always refreshing to encounter a calmly presented clarification of facts.

    I know that some posters (e.g. 24-7) will find the presentation merits an ad hominem attack, but it is genuinely nice to find rationality in this discussion, and I thank you.
    I find myself to be a moderate democrat. I cringe everytime I hear the far right clamoring for the elimination of moderates in their party.... I like moderate republicans. I like them so much I ALMOST voted for Mccain .. unfortunately when he picked his VP I decided on Obama...

  9. #9
    Veteran EVAY's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    May 2006
    Post Count
    7,563
    I find myself to be a moderate democrat. I cringe everytime I hear the far right clamoring for the elimination of moderates in their party.... I like moderate republicans. I like them so much I ALMOST voted for Mccain .. unfortunately when he picked his VP I decided on Obama...
    join the crowd.

  10. #10
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Post Count
    51,121
    Yahoo news has and always will be a liberal rag.
    Translation:

    "Anything that isn't rabidly conservative is liberal, so since it doesn't cater to my every belief, Yahoo news must be a liberal rag."




    God forbid anything that might run counter to your pre-established beliefs ever get past your own self-imposed censorship.

    pfft.

  11. #11
    Veteran rjv's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2009
    Post Count
    10,201
    About 23 million people will remain uninsured nine years out. That figure translates into an estimated 23,000 unnecessary deaths annually and an incalculable toll of suffering.

    Millions of middle-income people will be pressured to buy commercial health insurance policies costing up to 9.5 percent of their income but covering an average of only 70 percent of their medical expenses, potentially leaving them vulnerable to financial ruin if they become seriously ill. Many will find such policies too expensive to afford or, if they do buy them, too expensive to use because of the high co-pays and deductibles.

    Insurance firms will be handed at least $447 billion in taxpayer money to subsidize the purchase of their shoddy products. This money will enhance their financial and political power, and with it their ability to block future reform.

    The bill will drain about $40 billion from Medicare payments to safety-net hospitals, threatening the care of the tens of millions who will remain uninsured.

    People with employer-based coverage will be locked into their plan's limited network of providers, face ever-rising costs and erosion of their health benefits. Many, even most, will eventually face steep taxes on their benefits as the cost of insurance grows.

    Health care costs will continue to skyrocket, as the experience with the Massachusetts plan (after which this bill is patterned) amply demonstrates.

    The much-vaunted insurance regulations - e.g. ending denials on the basis of pre-existing conditions - are riddled with loopholes, thanks to the central role that insurers played in crafting the legislation. Older people can be charged up to three times more than their younger counterparts, and large companies with a predominantly female workforce can be charged higher gender-based rates at least until 2017.

    Women's reproductive rights will be further eroded, thanks to the burdensome segregation of insurance funds for abortion and for all other medical services.

    http://www.pnhp.org/news/2010/march/...lion-uninsured

  12. #12
    Hey Bruce... Lebron is the Rock Sec24Row7's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Nov 2004
    Post Count
    3,122
    Translation:

    "Anything that isn't rabidly conservative is liberal, so since it doesn't cater to my every belief, Yahoo news must be a liberal rag."




    God forbid anything that might run counter to your pre-established beliefs ever get past your own self-imposed censorship.

    pfft.
    No.

    That's just the way I feel about Yahoo news.

    Unfortunately for you I am one of the people that cannot be called a sheep for not liking this health care bill. I am one of the people who is going to be taxed extra to pay for this thing. I know we are just a measly little 5% or something so we don't matter in the voting records, but no amount of your posturing is going to convince me or anyone else that this isn't a ty deal for ME and people like me.

  13. #13
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Post Count
    51,121
    No.

    That's just the way I feel about Yahoo news.

    Unfortunately for you I am one of the people that cannot be called a sheep for not liking this health care bill. I am one of the people who is going to be taxed extra to pay for this thing. I know we are just a measly little 5% or something so we don't matter in the voting records, but no amount of your posturing is going to convince me or anyone else that this isn't a ty deal for ME and people like me.
    Fair enough. Sorry then for being a bit of a bag there.

    I have started to get an all-too-viceral reaction to people who complain about "liberal media", as many tend to think that to be "fair and balanced" requires pandering to the viewpoint they agree with most over actual fairness.

  14. #14
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Post Count
    51,121
    I find myself to be a moderate democrat. I cringe everytime I hear the far right clamoring for the elimination of moderates in their party.... I like moderate republicans. I like them so much I ALMOST voted for Mccain .. unfortunately when he picked his VP I decided on Obama...
    +1

    I still had a McCain 2000 t-shirt in my closet somewhere until a recent wardrobe purge. Should have kept it as a convo piece.

  15. #15
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jun 2005
    Post Count
    42,561
    I find myself to be a moderate democrat. I cringe everytime I hear the far right clamoring for the elimination of moderates in their party.... I like moderate republicans. I like them so much I ALMOST voted for Mccain .. unfortunately when he picked his VP I decided on Obama...


    Did you cringe when the Dems went after Stupak?

  16. #16
    keep asking questions George Gervin's Afro's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Post Count
    11,409
    Did you cringe when the Dems went after Stupak?
    What 'dems' are you talking about? Stupak got his provision in the bill so what's your point? If they would have told him to 'f' off then I would have cringed.. I despise the far left as mush as I despise the far right...

  17. #17
    Believe.
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Post Count
    22,886
    About 23 million people will remain uninsured nine years out. That figure translates into an estimated 23,000 unnecessary deaths annually and an incalculable toll of suffering.

    Millions of middle-income people will be pressured to buy commercial health insurance policies costing up to 9.5 percent of their income but covering an average of only 70 percent of their medical expenses, potentially leaving them vulnerable to financial ruin if they become seriously ill. Many will find such policies too expensive to afford or, if they do buy them, too expensive to use because of the high co-pays and deductibles.

    Insurance firms will be handed at least $447 billion in taxpayer money to subsidize the purchase of their shoddy products. This money will enhance their financial and political power, and with it their ability to block future reform.

    The bill will drain about $40 billion from Medicare payments to safety-net hospitals, threatening the care of the tens of millions who will remain uninsured.

    People with employer-based coverage will be locked into their plan's limited network of providers, face ever-rising costs and erosion of their health benefits. Many, even most, will eventually face steep taxes on their benefits as the cost of insurance grows.

    Health care costs will continue to skyrocket, as the experience with the Massachusetts plan (after which this bill is patterned) amply demonstrates.

    The much-vaunted insurance regulations - e.g. ending denials on the basis of pre-existing conditions - are riddled with loopholes, thanks to the central role that insurers played in crafting the legislation. Older people can be charged up to three times more than their younger counterparts, and large companies with a predominantly female workforce can be charged higher gender-based rates at least until 2017.

    Women's reproductive rights will be further eroded, thanks to the burdensome segregation of insurance funds for abortion and for all other medical services.

    http://www.pnhp.org/news/2010/march/...lion-uninsured
    This is awesome spin. The figures from before were 45k deaths so it cuts it in half.

    Old people should take more and the health insurers wanted far more than 3 times the premium. The people that really are getting hosed here as a whole are young people age 18-30 who are going to have to pick up the slack for those 65+ because 65+ use more than 3 times as much health care as young males in particular.

    When you see mischaracterizations like this you can tell its just political bull . Its really easy to cater to young men against this bill because they are getting a really raw deal here. Young men don't vote at nearly the rate as seniors so you spin it to appeal to them.

    Its such a crock of .

  18. #18
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Post Count
    113,796

  19. #19
    Orange Whip? Orange Whip? Viva Las Espuelas's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Post Count
    19,497
    Stupak got his provision in the bill
    no sir. it's not in the bill.

  20. #20
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Post Count
    113,796
    You are correct, VLE. This was Stupak's cover for voting for the Senate version.

  21. #21
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Post Count
    113,796
    An executive order backing him up, FWIW.

  22. #22
    Orange Whip? Orange Whip? Viva Las Espuelas's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Post Count
    19,497
    fully aware.

  23. #23
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Post Count
    113,796
    Obama stepped up and owned the Hyde Amendment. No golf clap?

  24. #24
    Orange Whip? Orange Whip? Viva Las Espuelas's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Post Count
    19,497
    Obama stepped up and owned the Hyde Amendment.
    3 days later, but yeah.

  25. #25
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
    My Team
    San Antonio Spurs
    Join Date
    Nov 2008
    Post Count
    113,796
    3 days later, but yeah.
    It took him too long?

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •