Garnett....

[monosylab1k]

Do you remember when people started to question who was the best player in that Mavs squad: Dirk or Howard?

Yeah, that happened for about 6 weeks in the 07-08 season. AFTER the Finals appearance, AFTER 67 wins. The same season that Howard then completely tanked, admitted to smoking weed, and played like ass against New Orleans.

So yeah, all those "specialists" as you like to call it, wound up looking incredibly stupid just a few weeks after making that proclamation.

[Ghazi]

Who are those "people?" Re s?

bullsfan1000

[monosylab1k]

Garnett was the best scorer in the last five minutes of close games for the Celtics in the 07/08 playoffs like he was for pretty much every team he played during his NBA career.

[mogrovejo]

Maybe by Colin Cowherd or other talk radio types who watch 5 games a year tops. I don't know of many front office execs, coaches or scouts who ever saw MJ and Iverson as essentially the same player.

In terms of intangibles? It was a pretty consensual opinion, including in basketball circles, but absolutely hegemonic in the press. Believe me, I used to get irritated by it.

He didn't outplay Kobe in the Finals?

Yeps and Garnett was the Celtics MVP (and best crunch time scorer) for the playoffs. I understand you didn't watch though.

[mogrovejo]

Sprewell shot 40FG% for that season + 33% from 3 + couldn't play defense any more. Szerbiak was injured almost the entire season and was garbage when he came back. I remember thinking that Garnett was the only superstar with a supporting cast as bad or worse as Pierce's, but I didn't recall it was this bad. Most of those guys were out of the NBA 2 seasons later. Hoiberg in his last season and a 36 yrs old Ervin Johnson as starters, Madsen and the Kandi man as key rotational players. Trenton Hassel as the 2nd best player. Yikes. Are you honestly comparing this to the Mavs team in 2006?

With this kind of supporting cast, I doubt Dirk would win a single series.

If Findog believes they're similar in quality, I don't know what to say.

[Findog]

The problem with the rebounding is that Dirk isn't even close to Garnett. Rebounding was always one of Dirk's weaknesses.

I have a problem with the notion that a 7-footer who grabs 11 boards a game in the playoffs and 9 in the regular season isn't a good rebounder. Not as good as KG? Fine. But a weakness? I don't think so.

KG spent years in Minnesota grabbing rebounds next to Michael Olowakandi or Ervin Johnson. Dirk still managed to get 9-11 a game playing alongside Erick Dampier. You know why Dirk wasn't getting more? Because Dampier was getting to them. It's his job.

[monosylab1k]

In terms of intangibles? It was a pretty consensual opinion, including in basketball circles, but absolutely hegemonic in the press. Believe me, I used to get irritated by it.

yeah I'm gonna have to ask you to stop pulling this bullcrap out of your ass and show some proof for your unfounded claims.

*waiting for "i don't need to show proof, you find the proof"*

If you're gonna make these re ed claims, the burden of proof is on you, pal.

[mogrovejo]

What is an example of an Advanced Stat? You say raw numbers are for children. What is an example of an advanced stat besides total rebound %? Effective Field Goal %? Offensive Rating? Turnover %?

I think the definition of advanced stat is subjective. I simply don't care. You're the one bringing up the expression.

I only said that using raw numbers to measure rebounding was ridicule - and you made that point yourself when you mentioned floor time, pace, missed shots, style of play.

[DAF86]

Who are those "people?" Re s?

A lot of Mavsfans if I recall correctly, in fact a Mavfan on this site brought that up some days ago.

[mogrovejo]

yeah I'm gonna have to ask you to stop pulling this bullcrap out of your ass and show some proof for your unfounded claims.

*waiting for "i don't need to show proof, you find the proof"*

If you're gonna make these re ed claims, the burden of proof is on you, pal.

What claims? That MJ was seen as a selfish, unclutch player with no leadersship skills till he started winning les? You weren't around in the 80s, were you?

[monosylab1k]

A lot of Mavsfans if I recall correctly

you don't.

[baseline bum]

For many years, Michael Jordan was considered the prototype of:

- unclutchness
- selfishness
- inability to lead

He was seen more or less the same way AI is seen today, just worse.

That's why I generally don't care much about that kind of intangibles stuff. They're merely a product of very fragile perceptions. This thread proves it - the "Pierce was the Celtics best player in the playoffs" is a great example of that.

Put KG or Dirk in the Spurs when they entered the league and they'd be seen as clutch/leader/etc.

I can't ever remember Jordan being seen as unclutch. Not after the series he had against Boston in 86. Maybe you could bring up the 95 ECF, but I remember everyone blaming rust and saying that wasn't the real Jordan without a full season under his belt.

[monosylab1k]

What claims? That MJ was seen as a selfish, unclutch player with no leadersship skills till he started winning les? You weren't around in the 80s, were you?

That's not what you said, liar. You said he had was seen in the same light as Allen Iverson, which is completely untrue. The polarizing nature of Allen Iverson completely eclipsed that of any player before him.

and @ people not seeing Jordan as clutch before he won les. He only hit a gamewinner over Craig Ehlo that is one of the most famous shots in basketball history.

[DAF86]

lol at people claiming scoring = rebounding = passes = defense in value and then finding categories in which KG is better than Dirk

You want your franchise player to be the best scorer on the floor, the one you can go to in the last minutes of a tie game and carry you to victory. That more than anything is what separates good players from the great ones. Dirk has that. If I need more rebounding I go get me a Ben Wallace for 1/4 of the price!

No, I want him to be the best player on the court.

[Findog]

With this kind of supporting cast, I doubt Dirk would win a single series.

So you're telling me Sprewell and Cassell were complete garbage that year? And that it's a complete coincidence that that year was the only year Garnett got out of the first round? You're telling me Sprewell's 20 points, 4 rebounds, 4 assists and 2 steals a game in the playoffs was nothing? Cassell was nothing special that year either? Yeah, I'm pretty sure Dirk could get out of the first round with 2004 Sprewell and Cassell.

[monosylab1k]

From the sound of it, mogrovejo is some high school kid studying for SAT's, learning these fancy new words, and decided to try them out on us. And got owned like a , per the usual.

[mogrovejo]

I can't ever remember Jordan being seen as unclutch.

It started even before his NBA career.

Not after the series he had against Boston in 86.

He got a lot of heat, not in 86 but in 87 for his style of play, selfishness, inability to finish games etc. He was being compared to Bird and getting the "talented but clueless" treatment (unfairly).

Maybe you could bring up the 95 ECF, but I remember everyone blaming rust and saying that wasn't the real Jordan without a full season under his belt.

Yeah, but his reputation in the 90s was radically different.

....

I don't agree that Jordan was unclutch, btw.

[monosylab1k]

For many years, Michael Jordan was considered the prototype of:

- unclutchness
- selfishness
- inability to lead

He was seen more or less the same way AI is seen today, just worse.

this seriously might be the most obtuse thing ever written on SpursTalk.

This has got to be worse than "Manu > Dirk" or anything Allanon has said.

[Findog]

What claims? That MJ was seen as a selfish, unclutch player with no leadersship skills till he started winning les? You weren't around in the 80s, were you?

You said he was seen in the EXACT same light as Allen Iverson. I remember both Shaq and MJ getting the "can't win the big one" tag thrown on them until they actually did, but that's a far cry from being considered a selfish ballhog that doesn't care about winning.

[monosylab1k]

It started even before his NBA career.

Yeah every sports writer was talking about how unclutch Jordan was right after hitting a gamewinner to take the National Championship.

[monosylab1k]

You said he was seen in the EXACT same light as Allen Iverson.

actually, he didn't. he said Jordan was seen in a worse light than Iverson

[Blake]

Rebounding was always one of Dirk's weaknesses.

fact finding appears to be one of yours

[monosylab1k]

I don't agree that Jordan was unclutch, btw.

Neither does anybody with a fully functional brain.

[mogrovejo]

You weren't around in the 80s, were you?

You could just answer "nope".

[Blake]

What claims? That MJ was seen as a selfish, unclutch player with no leadersship skills till he started winning les? You weren't around in the 80s, were you?

1989