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You could have said this from the beginning
A rebounding rate of 13% is a weakness for a big man. There's no other way around it.
People who look at raw rebounding numbers to form an opinion are ridiculous.
You could have said this from the beginning
so who exactly said he was?
Exactly what MJ was considered to be. Heck, even he admits that was how he was seen. Read one of the books about him.
It's one thing to say Dirk isn't as good a rebounder as KG, but 9 for his career, 11 a game in the playoffs, THAT DOESN'T MAKE HIM A POOR REBOUNDER!
Defense was a real hole in his game until about 2006 and he's only about average in that regard. If you want to say defense is a weakness, fine, but rebounding? GTFO.
How would Iverson be seen today if Shaq got injured before the 2001 Finals? I bet he'd have a much better reputation.
you weren't around in the 80's, were you? There were times where Jordan got the "selfish ballhog" label (and rightfully so), but nobody, especially not Jordan himself, ever disputed the fact that he cared about winning.
And to say he was seen in a worse light than Allen Iverson is just a cherry on top of your bull sundae. apparently you weren't around in the 90's either
It's one thing to say Dirk isn't as good a rebounder as KG, but 9 for his career, 11 a game in the playoffs, THAT DOESN'T MAKE HIM A POOR REBOUNDER!
Defense was a real hole in his game until about 2006 and he's only about average in that regard. If you want to say defense is a weakness, fine, but rebounding? GTFO.
The irony is that you first made the case why one shouldn't use raw rebounding numbers; just to note a few moments later that the reasons you presented would exactly demonstrate why Dirk is a bellow average rebounder - and now you're back to the raw rebounding numbers.
A rebounding rate of 13% is a weakness for a big man. There's no other way around it.
People who look at raw rebounding numbers to form an opinion are ridiculous.
So you can't answer?
What I remember is that is he was considered somebody who didn't make his teammates better until Chicago finally beat the Lakers. That's way different than being a "selfish ballhog who didn't care about winning." Anybody who knew anything about Jordan's compe iveness problems off the court knew that 'selfish ballhog that doesn't care about winning' was way off the mark.
You expect me to give a serious response to that crap? No thanks.
He plays alongside a guy who has a rebounding rate of 19% - you don't think he'd grab a few more of those rebounds if Dampier never signed with the Mavs and they continued to roll with junk at C?The irony is that you first made the case why one shouldn't use raw rebounding numbers; just to note a few moments later that the reasons you presented would exactly demonstrate why Dirk is a bellow average rebounder - and now you're back to the raw rebounding numbers.
True or False: A seven-footer who grabs 9 boards a game in the regular season, along with 11 boards a game in the playoffs, playing alongside a teammate with a rebounding rate of 19%, is a poor rebounder.
If Moses Malone got in a time machine and signed with the 2002 Minnesota Timberwolves, you think KG would maintain that awesome rebound rate?
Dirk's well above average as far as defensive rebound rate for his position. I dont think its fair to say hes a below average rebounder for a PF.
Although his offensive rebounding #'s have always been low
So, he was selfish, a ball-hog and didn't make his teammates better. Somehow, he was a winner...
This is BS. That's exactly how Iverson was seen - a selfish, ball-hog, who didn't make his teammates better. It's not like Iverson didn't want to win. He wanted to win and played the way he knew - as a selfish, ball-hog, who didn't make his teammates better.
That kind of intangibles - "winner", "clutch", "leader", - etc. are mostly a bunch of crap at the NBA level. It depends on the kind of press the player get, the team/market he's playing (bigger market-> better intangibles), his skin colour (whites generally have better intangibles), nationality (non Americans are generally soft/chockers even when they arent'), his clothing style, how articulate he is and, essentially, the quality of his teammates and coaches.
I didn't call him poor, I called him average/slightly bellow average. A poor rebounder is Roy Hibbert.
You definitely should stop using those raw rebounding numbers. They're pretty meaningless and can be misleading, as you've already understood.
He had a chance to be a great bench player on a solid Memphis team this season. He passed on that because he'd rather be a starter and dominate the ball.
he had a chance to be a team player in Detroit and run the offense as a quicker, faster Billups. He passed on that because he'd rather do things his way.
He'd rather get on a soapbox ing about how irrelevant practice is, instead of trying to help out his teammates.
To say Allen Iverson ever cared about winning is idiotic. He cared about getting his, and if he won some games along the way, cool.
What makes you think I am looking at raw numbers to base my opinion?
What do you or Hollinger think are the cutoff %s for weak-average-good-great rebounding?
Iverson always wanted to win on his terms - by shooting 11-35 from the floor. If he didn't get to shoot the ball on every single possession, then he mentally checked out. You can't say that about Jordan. Iverson was unfairly maligned in some ways, but I have a hard time believing that Jordan was ever considered to be essentially the same kind of problem player as Iverson.
You think a guy with a rebounding rate of 15% in his prime playing next to a guy with a rebounding rate of 19% is "slightly below average?" Okay. Especially when he may not be positioned in the post guarding the other team's best big?
Last edited by Findog; 03-30-2010 at 02:26 PM.
Jordan was an asshole to his coach and teammates, but he also made sure they knew he was never going to quit on them, and he was never going to let anything get in the way of winning. You can't even remotely say the same thing about Iverson.
You called him a weak rebounder.
Up in the sky in late summer you can see two stars shining not far from each other. They represent the story of the rival chief sons of the Iroquois. In Iroquois folklore, there were two neighboring tribes of the Iroquois nation, the two chiefs being cousins and fierce rivals from childhood as they fought over the same woman's love. The hatred manifested throughout each tribe. The two tribes decided to have a contest of skill and hunting, with the bow and arrow and tomahawk, between the sons of the two chiefs. The first son, Howling Wolf, did particularly well and after each successful feat, he would howl and bark and pound his chest. The second son, Free Spirited Horse, also did well and bested Howling Wolf in the skills portion of the contest. In the hunting contest, Howling Wolf failed to capture and kill the game bird, only to blame the pale man for the devastation to the forest trees not allowing for better camouflage. Howling Wolf swore he would fight the pale man and defeat him. Infuriated, Howling Wolf ran inconsolably to the woods and was killed by the gunshot of the pale man, pierced in the lungs, choking on the air he could no longer breathe. Free Spirited Horse was able to catch the game bird with a precisely bowed arrow. With the game bird in hand and a victory bowl of nuts and berries, Free Spirited Horse raised his trophy catch and took a handful of nuts to celebrate his victory, only to at that very moment choke on the nuts and die. The two sons of two Iroquois chiefs dead on the same day. The Great Sky Spirit took the souls of the two boys and placed them in the sky not far from each other so that the two tribes could see them and celebrate their memory, two stars. And by this story I mean who cares who's better between KG and Dirk? They're two stars who are both choke artists.
are you asking "what if AI had won a le?"
eh, probably about the same as Dywane Wade.
too bad AI only got to the finals once.
wait, lol wut?
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