Garnett....

[Findog]

Again? Dirk is an average/slightly bellow average rebounder and being that is a weakness in his overall game. Already explained this. Make more intelligent questions, please.

So, in other words, you don't think it matters who you're on the floor with when it comes to rebounding rates? You think Dirk would maintain the same rebound rate if Dampier were to be replaced with a poor rebounder? Do you think Garnett would maintain the same rebound rate if paired with a Rodman-type player?

[Blake]

Yeah, but you're wrong. What else do you want me to say? Four rebounds in 100 possessions is the difference between the Cavs this season (best rebounding team in the NBA) and the NOH this season (26th best rebounding team); 4 rebounds out of 100 change the outcome of dozens of games in a NBA season. You just can't translate the abstractness of the number to the practical impact it has in a game.

Read Dean Oliver's book or something. Dirk is an average/slightly bellow average rebounder; I wouldn't call him "weak".

And again, I think rebounding is an overrated stat at times.

4 out 100 rebounds is a misleading stat for an individual because you ar not taking into account how many of those 4 rebounds are pulled down by a teammate.

So you have read Dean Oliver's book yourself? Does Dean Oliver call Dirk a below average rebounder?

According to your % ranks, Dirk is not "slightly" below average. He is solidly below average. If you say it's a weakness for him, then you are calling him a weak rebounder. There's really no way around it.



Where do you get your rebounding rate stats from?

[mogrovejo]

So you have read Dean Oliver's book yourself?

Yes.

Does Dean Oliver call Dirk a below average rebounder?

I don't know, I've never asked. Probably.

According to your % ranks, Dirk is not "slightly" below average. He is solidly below average.

As I said, the numbers were indicative - you have to ponder the other factors I enumerated and adjust for teammates, for example. It's unfortunate you were unable to comprehend such a simple statement.

If you say it's a weakness for him, then you are calling him a weak rebounder.

That's semantics, but whatever. I don't see it that way because players' overall quality is very different. There are guys who are paid to play basketball basically because they rebound as well as Dirk. For them, their bellow average rebounding is a strength. If you don't want to say that Dirk's rebounding is a weakness, don't. You can say it's his weaker strength, I suppose.

[mogrovejo]

And again, I think rebounding is an overrated stat at times.

Really? that's great.

4 out 100 rebounds is a misleading stat for an individual because you ar not taking into account how many of those 4 rebounds are pulled down by a teammate.

Again, the difference between Bargnani and Dirk this season is 2.5%. There are lots of guys rebounding at 16%. At 20%? 3 guys in the entire league this season. Not sure what else to say. You want to think that the difference is small, you do.

And yes, I'm aware that the law of diminishing returns applies to rebounding. You're still wrong.

[Blake]

RPG is a misleading stat.

Rebounding is extremely underrated by basketball fans (especially if under rebounding one puts all those things I mentioned before - above the ring, protection, team rebounding, contest rebounding - for example, few pay attention to the importance of contesting a rebound, even if one doesn't get it).

na. I still think it's slightly overrated.

You lump in the lame free throw rebounds with the contested box out rebounds. Separate the two somehow and I think it's a better defensive stat.

[Blake]

Really? that's great.

It is what it is.

Again, the difference between Bargnani and Dirk this season is 2.5%. There are lots of guys rebounding at 16%. At 20%? 3 guys in the entire league this season. Not sure what else to say. You want to think that the difference is small, you do.

You said Dirk's rebound is weak.

What does 3 guys rebounding at 20% have to do with Dirk's rebounding?

And yes, I'm aware that the law of diminishing returns applies to rebounding. You're still wrong.

you are trying to LOL at people who use raw rebounding numbers, but you yourself are using incomplete stats if you can't tell me how many of those 4 rebounds out of 100 get pulled down by his teammates. LOL.

Where do you get your rebounding rate stats from?

[mogrovejo]

What does 3 guys rebounding at 20% have to do with Dirk's rebounding?

It's the same 4% difference that you somehow consider small and insignificant. I can't keep explaining this forever. If you're still unable to understand it now, there's good chances you'll never get it.

you are trying to LOL at people who use raw rebounding numbers, but you yourself are using incomplete stats if you can't tell me how many of those 4 rebounds out of 100 get pulled down by his teammates.

Not everything is quantifiable. Doesn't mean that everything is equally good or bad. Doubt you can process this kind of reasoning, if you still can't understand how the same level of rebounding can be a weakness for player X and an asset for player Y.

In any case, that impact can - and is - measured.

Where do you get your rebounding rate stats from?

Various places. You can get yours from ESPN or basketball-reference.

[Blake]

It's the same 4% difference that you somehow consider small and insignificant. I can't keep explaining this forever. If you're still unable to understand it now, there's good chances you'll never get it.

Obviously you aren't getting it.

You say Dirk's rebounding has always been a weakness.

Now you are saying it's a weakness because he is 4% lower than someone else.

Why is it weak because it's lower than someone else?

LOL

Not everything is quantifiable. Doesn't mean that everything is equally good or bad. Doubt you can process this kind of reasoning, if you still can't understand how the same level of rebounding can be a weakness for player X and an asset for player Y.

In any case, that impact can - and is - measured.

Exactly. so why are you trying to quantify Dirk's rebounding by comparing it with Player Y?

Where is it stated that 13% is a weakness, even if it's 8 or 9 a game?

Various places. You can get yours from ESPN or basketball-reference.

Why is it so hard for you to give me a link to where you get your rebounding rate stats?

[DAF86]

+1. lol that he never responded to this.

Why would I respond to that? That's all true but that doesn't disprove the fact that KG > Dirk, which is all I'm arguing about.

[DUNCANownsKOBE2]

Dirk's a really weak offensive rebounder, but defensive rebound wise he's average-above average. His career DR% is 22.1, top 50 of all time career wise, ahead of several big names like Kareem Abdul Jabbar and Kevin McHale.

[mogrovejo]

Obviously you aren't getting it.

You say Dirk's rebounding has always been a weakness.

Now you are saying it's a weakness because he is 4% lower than someone else.

Why is it weak because it's lower than someone else?

LOL

Nah, you're confused. I never said it's a weakness because he is 4% lower than someone else. Lots of excellent rebounders are/were 4% lower than someone else.

Exactly. so why are you trying to quantify Dirk's rebounding by comparing it with Player Y?

Where is it stated that 13% is a weakness, even if it's 8 or 9 a game?

I have little patient for trolling. If you think that a 13% rebounding rate isn't bellow average, then I don't know what to say. I really don't care. Call a very good rebounder to every guy who gets a 13% RR for all I care.

Why is it so hard for you to give me a link to where you get your rebounding rate stats?

I never thought you didn't even know where you could consult them. I've already told you the stats. You need a link to ESPN? Are you mentally re ed or something?

[JamStone]

This is what this thread reminds me of, emphasis on the music.

[badfish22]

same. Had that song playing in my head before I played the vid.

[Findog]

According to advanced stats, Kevin Garnett at his peak was a better rebounder, passer, defender and took care of the ball better on offense than Tim Duncan.

Who would you take in their prime, Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett?

When it comes to advanced stats, or what teams like Houston are doing, I think as a franchise you'd be doing your roster a disservice if you didn't utilize that information, but they have to be used in tandem with traditional scouting methods and film study.

[mogrovejo]

According to advanced stats, Kevin Garnett at his peak was a better rebounder, passer, defender and took care of the ball better on offense than Tim Duncan.

Who would you take in their prime, Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett?

When it comes to advanced stats, or what teams like Houston are doing, I think as a franchise you'd be doing your roster a disservice if you didn't utilize that information, but they have to be used in tandem with traditional scouting methods and film study.

I'd take Duncan but mostly because he was a much easier player to build around. I never thought that the difference between them was that big. I doubt Duncan would have won a le with the Wolves (in fact, I'm positively sure he wouldn't) and I think with Garnett the Spurs wouldn't have the 2003 championship and would probably have another finals presence.

And stop calling that stuff advanced stats. Assist rate an advanced stat? It's the same basic stat but per possession. THe game is easier to understand from a quan ative perspective in a possession basis.

Those cautionary words about over-reliance on stats could have served Cuban well a few years ago; I'm not that big on stats.

[Findog]

And stop calling that stuff advanced stats. Assist rate an advanced stat? It's the same basic stat but per possession. THe game is easier to understand from a quan ative perspective in a possession basis.

I'm talking about the privileged stuff that front offices don't share with the general public - what kind of information they collect, what they do with it, how they analyze it, what sort of conclusions they reach with it, etc. Do you know what's on Daryl Morey's laptop? Can you find the post where I said assist rate is an "advanced stat?"

Those cautionary words about over-reliance on stats could have served Cuban well a few years ago; I'm not that big on stats.

This after using them exhaustively to try and make the case that KG >>>> Dirk. Now it's "going with the gut."

[mogrovejo]

I'm talking about the privileged stuff that front offices don't share with the general public - what kind of information they collect, what they do with it, how they analyze it, what sort of conclusions they reach with it, etc. Do you know what's on Daryl Morey's laptop?"

I have an idea; apparently you know for sure - you even know that "according to advanced stats bla bla bla".

[mogrovejo]

This after using them exhaustively to try and make the case that KG >>>> Dirk. Now it's "going with the gut."

It must be sad to have no other reasoning process except a dilemma-based one.

[mogrovejo]

I can't do it all the time, but there are posts of mine in this forum where I've used the kind of stats that teams collect. It's basically a question about how much detailed you want the charting to be. You guys could get advanced stats for every Mavs game if you were willing to put up the time/work necessary to collect the info. All you need is the game in a DVR device, paper and a pen.

[Findog]

I have an idea; apparently you know - you even know that "according to advanced stats bla bla bla".

It's just semantics. Basketball-Reference groups things like PER, Win Shares, Total Rebound %, Offensive Rating, Defensive Rating, True Shooting %, Turnover %, Assist Rate in the same category of "Advanced." Whatever. If that makes you blanche, then fine.

If you want something more pedantic, according to Total Rebound %, Assist Rate, Turnover %, Defensive Rating, Garnett was a better rebounder, passer, defender and had better handles than Duncan.

[Findog]

I can't do it all the time, but there are posts of mine in this forum where I've used the kind of stats that teams collect. It's basically a question about how much detailed you want the charting to be. You guys could get advanced stats for every Mavs game if you were willing to put up the time/work necessary to collect the info. All you need is the game in a DVR device, paper and a pen.

Honest question: What kind of stats do teams collect? If I wanted to chart a game the same way a scout or front-office type would, what would I track? Just a broad general overview.

[mogrovejo]

It's just semantics. Basketball-Reference groups things like PER, Win Shares, Total Rebound %, Offensive Rating, Defensive Rating, True Shooting %, Turnover %, Assist Rate in the same category of "Advanced." Whatever. If that makes you blanche, then fine.

If you want something more pedantic, according to Total Rebound %, Assist Rate, Turnover %, Defensive Rating, Garnett was a better rebounder, passer, defender and had better handles than Duncan.

I really don't care about the semantics - as long as it's clear one is talking about per possession stats, APMs, eff. per shot location and that kind of stuff (including PERs, WSs, etc). or the kind of info that, say, Sinergy collects -
but why the heck were you asking "Can you find the post where I said assist rate is an advanced stat?" then?

[FeZZy]

so..... manu ginobili...crazy block

[mogrovejo]

Honest question: What kind of stats do teams collect? If I wanted to chart a game the same way a scout or front-office type would, what would I track? Just a broad general overview.

Level of shot contestedness. Then it's broken down: in post isos, the Spurs contesting mid-range shots, with Gasol turning left in the right block, Rondo closing out on shooters at the top of the key.

Pick'n'roll defense - say, in the high ballscreen between Nash and Stoudemire, what happens when you hedge on, trap, drop down to zone and containe penetration, switch - does it result in a score by the ballhandler, pass, turnover, reset. How do team A defends the side pick'n'roll.

Initial set offenses - Is Ray Felton's offense left or right handed - meaning, does he initiate the offense on the right side of the floor or the left side of the floor more? Is there a tendency? PGs who are one-side dominants are easier to defend. What about the first pass to the wing? Is there a pattern?

Off-the-ball action - same stuff, identify patterns. When cross-screens in the midpost lead consistently to a corner 3 probably you can stop that play.

Shooting - Brandon Rush is a 41% 3pt shooter. But what if he's a 50% 3pt shooter coming off screens, a 36% shooter on spot up situations and a 6% one pulling up?

Rebounding - who boxes out, who contest rebounds, who rebounds bellow or above the rim. For example, one of the leading rebounders in the league hasn't got a rebound above the rim in the last 2 years.

ISOs - how does CHase Budinger defends isolations? What % of his defensive poss. in isolations result in a score when compared to the rest of the league? (It's a pretty dire picture for him, btw).


Every play can be tagged with multiple tags - style of play, players involved, outcome, etc. From there, you can build a virtually unlimited collection of stats.

[Shaolin-Style]

According to advanced stats, Kevin Garnett at his peak was a better rebounder, passer, defender and took care of the ball better on offense than Tim Duncan.

Who would you take in their prime, Tim Duncan or Kevin Garnett?

When it comes to advanced stats, or what teams like Houston are doing, I think as a franchise you'd be doing your roster a disservice if you didn't utilize that information, but they have to be used in tandem with traditional scouting methods and film study.

Watching them both in their prime, I would say Duncan was better on defending his position and rotations, and demanded more attention on offense. But you'd have to have seen them in their time to know that kind of stuff, or take someones word for it. Stats can't describe that.