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  1. #1
    Pump Bacon Cane's Avatar
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    (CNN) -- The father of a Marine whose funeral was picketed by the Westboro Baptist Church says an order to pay the protesters' legal costs in a civil claim is nothing less than a "slap in the face."

    "By the court making this decision, they're not only telling me that they're taking their side, but I have to pay them money to do this to more soldiers and their families," said Albert Snyder, whose son, Lance Cpl. Matthew Snyder, was killed in action in Iraq in 2006.

    Members of the fundamentalist church based in Topeka, Kansas, appeared outside Snyder's funeral in 2006 in Westminster, Maryland, carrying signs reading "You're going to ," "God hates you" and "Thank God for dead soldiers."

    Among the teachings of the church, which was founded in 1955 by pastor Fred Phelps, is the belief that God is punishing the United States for "the sin of sexuality" through events such as soldiers' deaths.

    Margie Phelps, the daughter of Fred Phelps and the attorney representing the church in its appeals, also said the money that the church receives from Snyder will be used to finance demonstrations. But she also said that the order was a consequence of his decision to sue the church over the demonstration.

    "Mr. Snyder and his attorneys have engaged the legal system; there are some rules to that legal engagement," said Phelps, a member of Westboro who says she has participated in more than 150 protests of military funerals.

    "They wanted to shut down the picketing so now they're going to finance it," she said.

    The 4th Circuit Court of Appeals on Friday ordered that Snyder pay more than $16,000 in costs requested by Westboro for copies of motions, briefs and appendices, according to court do ents.

    In a motion filed in October, Snyder's lawyer, who is representing him for free, asked the court to dismiss the bill of costs, or, alternatively, reduce the 50-cent fee per page or charge Snyder only for copies that were necessary to make their arguments on appeal.

    "We objected based upon ability to pay and the fairness of the situation," Sean Summers said.

    The mostly pro-forma ruling is the latest chapter in an ongoing legal saga that pits privacy rights of grieving families against the free speech rights of demonstrators, however disturbing and provocative their message.
    Snyder's family sued the church and went to trial in 2007 alleging privacy invasion, intentional infliction of emotional distress and civil conspiracy. A jury awarded the family $2.9 million in compensatory damages plus $8 million in punitive damages, which were reduced to $5 million.

    Westboro in 2008 appealed the case to the 4th District, which reversed the judgments a year later, siding with the church's claims that its First Amendment rights had been violated.

    "The protest was confined to a public area under supervision and regulation of local law enforcement and did not disrupt the church service," the circuit court opinion said. "Although reasonable people may disagree about the appropriateness of the Phelps' protest, this conduct simply does not satisfy the heavy burden required for the tort of intentional infliction of emotional distress under Maryland law."

    The U.S. Supreme Court has agreed to hear the case to address issues of laws designed to protect the "sanc y and dignity of memorial and funeral services" as well as the privacy of family and friends of the deceased.
    The justices will be asked to address how far states and private en ies such as cemeteries and churches can go to justify picket-free zones and the use of "floating buffers" to silence or restrict speech or movements of demonstrators exercising their cons utional rights in a funeral setting.
    Both Phelps and Snyder's attorney said they were surprised that the 4th District chose to weigh in on the issue of legal costs when they could have waited until after the Supreme Court hearing.

    Phelps believes the ruling bodes well for her side.

    "It is a good harbinger of the fact that the Supreme Court will remind this nation that you don't have mob rule. The fact that so many people hate these words does not mean you can silence or penalize them. That's supposed to be the great liberty that we congratulate ourselves on protecting in this nation. We strut all around the world forcing people to give all the liberties we supposedly have," she said.

    Phelps anticipated that a Supreme Court ruling in the church's favor would be unpopular, but she said Westboro's members viewed the potential outcome in Biblical terms.

    "When the Supreme Court unanimously upholds the 4th Circuit, it's going to put this country in a rage, and we will be expelled," she said. "But whenever it was time for an epic event in the Bible, the thing that happened right before is the prophets were removed from the land, and that's what's going to happen to us. ... We're going to sprint to the end of this race."

    Snyder claims he is unable to pay any legal costs in the case and is attempting to raise funds on his son's site, http://www.matthewsnyder.org/. He is equally optimistic that he will prevail before the Supreme Court.

    "The American people keep my spirits lifted a lot and give me hope. I think most of the country is on my side on this issue," he said. "Too many people have died to protect our rights and freedoms to have them degraded and spit upon like this church does."

    CNN's Bill Mears contributed to this report.

    http://www.cnn.com/2010/CRIME/03/30/....html?hpt=Sbin
    Being a military guy myself it makes me want to rage that such tasteless protests happens at a deceased person's funeral. To exploit these opportunities in order to parade your hatred against sexuals is about as selfish and un-Christian as it gets too. The protestors also point to how this country is based around free speech which is ironic since service men and women are the ones putting their lives on the line...goes back to that saying: "I may not agree with what you say but I'll die defending the right to say it."

    I am pretty ignorant but I thought this kind of stuff was already outlawed but apparently not or maybe not under these cir stances. How do you think the Supreme Court should rule here? I think it should definitely favor Snyder's family.

  2. #2
    Veteran EVAY's Avatar
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    I agree with your rage.

    Phelps' group should be stopped, in my opinion, from defaming any military funeral. Phelps is an embarrassment to Christianity, and is the opposite of Christian in his actions and opinion, IMO.

    Unfortunately...REALLY unfortunately, Phelps seems to have the cons ution on his side, (freedom of speech and religious expression), so I can't figure out how to deny him and still keep the very freedoms that he is abusing, and that were defended by the dead military guy whose fueral he is debasing.

  3. #3
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    There's gotta be some kind of civil suit based intimidation, cruelty or harrassment.

    They aren't going to stop the war by protesting a man giving a funeral for his son.

  4. #4
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    How do you think the Supreme Court should rule here? I think it should definitely favor Snyder's family.
    Freedom of speech isn't free if it excludes speech that is hateful or objectionable, and justice that tailors its judgments to the most popular outcome isn't worth the name. JMO.

  5. #5
    Pump Bacon Cane's Avatar
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    Freedom of speech isn't free if it excludes speech that is hateful or objectionable, and justice that tailors its judgments to the most popular outcome isn't worth the name. JMO.
    I mostly agree with that however there are still boundaries and lines that shouldn't be crossed without consequence.

    Did a search on this subject and came up with some stuff on Wiki :

    The Respect for America’s Fallen Heroes Act (Pub.L. 109-228, 120 Stat. 387, enacted May 29, 2006) is an Act of Congress that prohibits protests within 300 feet (90 m) of the entrance of any cemetery under control of the National Cemetery Administration (a division of the United States Department of Veterans Affairs) from 60 minutes before to 60 minutes after a funeral. Penalties for violating the act are up to $100,000 in fines and up to one year imprisonment.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Respect...len_Heroes_Act
    A handful of states passed similar legislation prior to the above. Looking back on the original article, its no wonder too since that disgusting group of "Christians" have been doing this for quite some time and over 150 funerals.

  6. #6
    The D.R.A. Drachen's Avatar
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    I mostly agree with that however there are still boundaries and lines that shouldn't be crossed without consequence.

    Did a search on this subject and came up with some stuff on Wiki :



    A handful of states passed similar legislation prior to the above. Looking back on the original article, its no wonder too since that disgusting group of "Christians" have been doing this for quite some time and over 150 funerals.
    No, you misunderstood, that lady had been to 150 funerals, but they have been doing this since the 70's I believe. Their stance is basically that everyone is going to and they are trying to spread their message that you need to hate everyone to get into heaven. Do some research on them, it is appalling. There was a good article in the E-N a few months back because they came to san antonio to protest something (I don't know, maybe it was to protest the sun for being lazy when it sets, its going to ). It gave a pretty good history of the church, and Fred Phelps himself (he was a freakin civil rights lawyer helping black people pro bono for crying out loud. strange mix there). It also talked about this biker gang that rides around following them from protest to protest launching counter-protests and essentially shouting them down and revving their bikes really loud so the Westboro church members cant be heard.

  7. #7
    Veteran EVAY's Avatar
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    Freedom of speech isn't free if it excludes speech that is hateful or objectionable, and justice that tailors its judgments to the most popular outcome isn't worth the name. JMO.
    The very essence of whatever judicial decisions come out of this thing, regardless of how far up it goes.


    I also think that since the law that Cane references went into effect, Phelps, et.al. have been careful to position themselves in such a way as to abide by the law AND maximize the likely pain to the folks they are offending, all the while garnering as much publicity as possible. One of Phelps' kids or kids' spouse is a lawyer, and they are very careful.

  8. #8
    Pump Bacon Cane's Avatar
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    No, you misunderstood, that lady had been to 150 funerals, but they have been doing this since the 70's I believe. Their stance is basically that everyone is going to and they are trying to spread their message that you need to hate everyone to get into heaven. Do some research on them, it is appalling. There was a good article in the E-N a few months back because they came to san antonio to protest something (I don't know, maybe it was to protest the sun for being lazy when it sets, its going to ). It gave a pretty good history of the church, and Fred Phelps himself (he was a freakin civil rights lawyer helping black people pro bono for crying out loud. strange mix there). It also talked about this biker gang that rides around following them from protest to protest launching counter-protests and essentially shouting them down and revving their bikes really loud so the Westboro church members cant be heard.
    God damn how is that legal. Good for the counter-protestors ing their bull up. Thanks for this I'm pretty ignorant in this area of life.

  9. #9
    dangerous floater Winehole23's Avatar
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    Good for the counter-protestors ing their bull up.
    Like you said upstream, there are consequences for crossing lines.

  10. #10
    Scrumtrulescent
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    Freedom of speech isn't free if it excludes speech that is hateful or objectionable, and justice that tailors its judgments to the most popular outcome isn't worth the name. JMO.
    Yep.

  11. #11
    俺はまんこが大好きなんだよ baseline bum's Avatar
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    I hope the fees are collected as pennies, and then dumped on these er's front lawn. Phelps has the cons utional right be a jackass, and Snyder has the right to pay him in any type of legal tender.

  12. #12
    It's In The Numbers 1369's Avatar
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    While I feel that the WBC should all eat a bag of s and die in a fire, this is the price we pay for the 1st Amendment.

    In other news Bill O'Reilly says he will pay the father's judgement costs.

    Like O'Reilly or not (I don't always agree with what he says), he did right by that family.

  13. #13
    The D.R.A. Drachen's Avatar
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    The very essence of whatever judicial decisions come out of this thing, regardless of how far up it goes.


    I also think that since the law that Cane references went into effect, Phelps, et.al. have been careful to position themselves in such a way as to abide by the law AND maximize the likely pain to the folks they are offending, all the while garnering as much publicity as possible. One of Phelps' kids or kids' spouse is a lawyer, and they are very careful.

    Well, I think that they would be selecting funerals where this law doesn't apply. The cemetaries have to be part of that organization which is controlled by the VA. If they aren't being buried in a military cemetary, they have free reign. This church is disgusting they have the children in the church go and protest other churches in the town every week, also shops, and just on corners EVERY WEEK. With signs and slogans like "you are going to " and "God hates s". This is one of their more recognizable slogans and is usually included in stock footage that news channels and do entaries use when talking about hatred or gay people, etc. You have probably actually seen the clip of this lady holding that sign.

  14. #14
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Freedom of speech isn't free if it excludes speech that is hateful or objectionable, and justice that tailors its judgments to the most popular outcome isn't worth the name. JMO.
    Except that interrupting others free speech, assemblies, etc. violates the meaning of free speech. Why do their free speech rights trump others? That is why "Free Speech Zones" are legally OK. When you attempt to overpower someone elses freedoms, you are now violating others rights.

  15. #15
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    How do you think the Supreme Court should rule here? I think it should definitely favor Snyder's family.
    If no law was broken, then they should rule not guilty.

  16. #16
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    Good for Billo. He's still an asshole bully.

  17. #17
    The D.R.A. Drachen's Avatar
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    While I feel that the WBC should all eat a bag of s and die in a fire, this is the price we pay for the 1st Amendment.

    In other news Bill O'Reilly says he will pay the father's judgement costs.

    Like O'Reilly or not (I don't always agree with what he says), he did right by that family.

    Well, I don't like O'Reilly, and I really disagree with him 99.8% of the time, BUT that is all, I disagree and sometimes question his mental capacities because of the conclusions that he comes to. At least his conclusions seem relatively well thought out (albeit wrong in my opinion) I don't however think that he is an intentional hate-monger and I respect him for that (I would put Rush in that category). Every once in a while, he says or does something that I agree with and when these events happen, it is usually a big agreement. This is one of those cases. I may even write him a letter thanking him for doing this.

    I know I haven't weighed in on the upcoming case, because I keep forgetting to, but I think that WBC will and should win their case provided that the above-referenced law was not violated. It sucks really really really bad, but I can't justify repealing the 1st amendment because of 155 bags.

  18. #18
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Except that interrupting others free speech, assemblies, etc. violates the meaning of free speech. Why do their free speech rights trump others? That is why "Free Speech Zones" are legally OK. When you attempt to overpower someone elses freedoms, you are now violating others rights.
    I don't like those protesters any more than you do, but how exactly were them interrupting the free speech of others?

  19. #19
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    Terrible story.


    Didn't the Patriot Guard biker group put the beat down on some of those bags?

  20. #20
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    I don't like those protesters any more than you do, but how exactly were them interrupting the free speech of others?
    You don't consider a funeral with statements made, a form of speech, or the quiet nature people practice at such events?

    Come on now. You cant really be missing the point here. Such things are also considered private events, and most cemeteries are not government owned. There is now the right of removing trespassers as well.

    Really now. You consider interrupting a private event, free speech?

  21. #21
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Terrible story.


    Didn't the Patriot Guard biker group put the beat down on some of those bags?
    They cannot be everywhere.

  22. #22
    The D.R.A. Drachen's Avatar
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    Terrible story.


    Didn't the Patriot Guard biker group put the beat down on some of those bags?
    That is the name of the biker gang! I couldn't remember. They probably didn't show up to this particular protest out of respect for the dead. They probably figured that they would be only adding to the problem if they were revving their bikes during the service.

  23. #23
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    You don't consider a funeral with statements made, a form of speech, or the quiet nature people practice at such events?
    Sure. But the protestors didn't prevent them from having their funeral, did they?

    I mean, except for the message, they're no different than people that might show up in support of the family and to honor the deceased.

    Perhaps it's time to extend the law that was quoted earlier to include all cemeteries. Until then, I don't know there's much you can do if they abide by all rules and regulations.

  24. #24
    The D.R.A. Drachen's Avatar
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    You don't consider a funeral with statements made, a form of speech, or the quiet nature people practice at such events?

    Come on now. You cant really be missing the point here. Such things are also considered private events, and most cemeteries are not government owned. There is now the right of removing trespassers as well.

    Really now. You consider interrupting a private event, free speech?
    As long as they got their permits and didn't set foot onto the private land. Yes. Otherwise you can make a case that no protests are protected. Think about it, as the protest goes down the street, they are interrupting people trying to work in the buildings which are on that street.

  25. #25
    俺はまんこが大好きなんだよ baseline bum's Avatar
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    Come on now. You cant really be missing the point here. Such things are also considered private events, and most cemeteries are not government owned. There is now the right of removing trespassers as well.

    Really now. You consider interrupting a private event, free speech?
    "The protest was confined to a public area..."

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