Parker might come off the bench at first, just to shake the rust off. But I agree that Ginoboli would be a better option back in his 6th man role, just for the fact that he has the expierence in that role, as opposed to Parker.
How is This hard-headed and re ed? I'm simply saying if Tony and RJ don't find a way to play effectively together than were not going to win the championship anyway. Do you disagree with this. Start who you want but you bet those 2 will be out there together when every game is on the line.
I'd say anyone who paid attention in the Dallas series last year knows how Hill will play in the post-season (hint: it was the best on the squad outside of anyone not named Manu or Bowen).
Did you watch the game last night? You've got your answer.No, with my lineup, you only have guy, Bogans, who is a liability offensively. McDyess, although inconsistant, still has the ability to score and defend. So Aggie(), I can't believe I'm asking this, what starting lineup would you like to see?
If we trot out Bogans and Dice, do you think the two of them shooting a combined 25-30 shots a night can win us a playoff series? Because that is what guys like Jackson will challenge them to do.
Do you honestly believe, come playoff time, that Bogans and McDyess will get that many touches?
Lol. Exactly.
It should be obvious to anyone at this point that Parker needs to be instant scoring off the bench, the chemistry with Hill/Manu/RJ/etc. out there as starters should not be messed with
LOL like Parker would accept that role. You can usually tell how much it pains him to cheer on his teammates when Pop doesn't have him in at crunch time. dude isn't exactly Manu as far as it being "all about the team"
DGMW Parker's great, but he wouldn't have this. at least not without some serious pouting and uninspired play
I did exaggerate my point a bit. he'd probably get used to it. at any rate I don't see it happening.
So, did you pay attention the last time we faced LA? Or Dallas last year? Go back to any of our playoff series and you can see good coaches make the role players beat them.
Last year against Dallas Carlisle forced guys like Finley, Mason, Bonner, and Gooden to take upwards of 30-35 of our shots each game they won.
Phil used to do it to, he'd pack the lane to marginalize Parker's driving and Tim's post-up game, and force us to beat them outside with our perimeter shooters, and we couldn't do it.
You can put your head in a hole in the ground and be stupid about this, but the reality is you can expect the same type of Ds this year, and you can bet your ass if you trot out Bogans and Dice in the starting five against any of the top 4 teams in the West, they will double the out of Tim, pack the lane, and say 'fine, let's see if Dice and Bogans can beat us from outside.'
Like I said, are you willing to gamble the Spurs season on those two holding up shooting under playoff pressure? Because that's the bet opposing coaches are going to take with a lineup like that.
+1 ......
Says it all really. Spurs have some terribly unclutch role players this year that are going to choke HARD against LA. Not really looking forward to watching Bonner/Mason/Udoka brick every one of their wide-open threes.
-I don't care if TP starts or not..I'll be fine either way..I'd prefer he starts, but I understand the chemistry argument..
-There's absolutely no way Manu shouldn't start..no way..he's hot as , and the fact that he's shooting lights out from the perimeter will help the spacing in the starting lineup, which has been a problem and something people didn't mention too much earlier in the season..
-Bogans shouldn't start, it shouldn't even be considered..see Aggie's post..if he plays more than 10 MPG in the playoffs, the Spurs are in even more trouble..
-There are people in this thread that are going to be heartbroken since they expect Richard Jefferson to "take the reigns" on this team in the playoffs..the Spurs shouldn't set their plans based on Richard Jefferson..
-Jefferson's usage % hasn't been much different since Tony went out of the lineup IIRC..sure, he's played better since TP left, but I think it's more of a coincidence than anything..I could be wrong though, I'm gonna be doing some research when I can to see if there's a link..Jefferson isn't getting many more possessions without Parker..he's clearly been more aggressive since his hot streak started, I don't think it has much to do with TP..
Jefferson just has to actually attack when he has the ball when TP is in the lineup..when has Parker ever complained about anything like this?..I'm sure he would like having a teammate to help, especially when he's the one that said the Spurs need better players following the loss to the Mavs, IIRC..
Either way, if Jefferson needs Manu to score, then we're screwed either way..that doesn't work in the playoffs, teams scout and analyze specific teams a lot more..Jefferson is gonna need to score on his own at times, it doesn't matter who he's playing with..
Last edited by HarlemHeat37; 04-01-2010 at 07:05 PM.
man it give us the lakers in the first round we got em
Lots of ways to look at this. Tony and Manu give the team two slightly different iden ies in my opinion. The team has never had an iden y all season that worked until Manu picked up his play, which seems to have an effect on RJ. Some may debate it, but RJ really seems to think its the case and his overall effort level has been better without a doubt (though not saying he's a good defensive player yet.) Whether or not this was because TP was out of the equation is debatable, but I think it was a factor.
No way Manu should be put to the bench. He's a team player but I'm sure he's tired of always being the one that gets moved around to accomodate other players. If anything other players should experiment accomodating him.
Also, Manu needs to be resigned. I think he wants to stay a Spur, but no reason to ruffle his feathers by putting him in the second unit right when he's playing his best ball in over a year.
Also, who really knows what Tony Parker we are getting back from injury? Is he 100% and ready to go? Is he still going to be playing beneath his usual level of play as he did this year? If Tony is back to an All Star level then hopefully many of the problems we had this year will be much less because when Parker fully dominates it does open up opportunities for other players. When he struggles but doesn't adapt, then we have problems.
My feeling is that Pop will have to be the diplomat and start everybody and see what happens.
You're right, but Pop will also want someone he feels comfortable guarding top opposition wings starting and that's why I doubt we see Ginobili/Parker starting in conjunction with Jefferson. Hill can fill the spacing for the starting lineup role and guard these types of players and that's why he'll continue to start. With the way Ginobili is playing, I don't think Pop makes the switch instantly. He'll wait and if the Spurs get a split in their first two playoff games, stick with if. If they go down 0-2, Ginobili's probably going back to the bench and Parker is probably starting.
It doesn't matter that much though. Either way, this is the best back court in the league and the way Pop handles the rotation the first sub is coming 5-7 minutes in, so it's not like we're talking about a lineup that's going to last almost all of the 1st and 3rd quarters, like most teams. This matters more when a minimal player like Bogans starts, but three guys of this caliber (even though Hill is still a clear cut third), it's not that big of a deal.
No way Bogans starts. Because of Hill's emergence, the Spurs will likely play a three guard rotation, Bogans will likely be almost strictly the backup three. I don't expect him to exceed 15 mpg in the playoffs, but of course, this is predicated on match-ups.
I think Jefferson will be fine in the playoffs. His scoring will likely decrease, because obviously Parker will be taking more shots, but overall he'll become almost an afterthought for teams defensively, because he's really the fifth scorer. He has to shoot the three a little better than 32% though. I don't expect the 39% he shot last season, but at least 35%, which is respectable enough to keep the defense honest and allow him to drive their closeouts, which is (other than in transition) when he's at his best.
Where he can really help the Spurs is to help avoid the scoring droughts they're infamous for running into in the playoffs, particularly when one or two of the big three are resting. When two or all of them are in the game, he'll be almost an afterthought offensively and have to provide value by rebounding and playing solid defense.
If only fatigue were not an issue...
If fatigue were not an issue, we would play tony, ginobili, duncan all night every night for 48 minutes. That would by far be the strongest lineup.
What people are referring to is, if you have ginobili, parker, and duncan to start the game, ginobili's talent is "wasted" in the following sense:
He's not going to touch the ball/facilitate the offense every single time with tony on the floor. Yet, he's going to have to hustle his ass off on the defensive end and will end up getting winded by the time the ball actually gets to his hands, thus taking away from his offensive capabilities.
Oh and the bench vs starting argument is valid. Some players have psychological advantages/disadvantages coming off the bench and playing as a starter.
With Manu, I don't think this is necessarily the case, but I do think there is a rhythm component here. Ginobili has proven time and time again that his offensive production increases appreciably when he starts versus as a bench player even if the total time played is the same
That's why I never buy this "It's not who starts the games, it's who finishes" deal. Yeah, that little mantra is valid as far as ego goes, but we're not talking about ego here, nobody gives a about ego/prestige of being a starter versus bench player. It's a no brainer, the 3 best players we have are (and likely will be for the next 2-3 years) duncan parker and ginobili. Ginobili isn't hte 6th best player on this team, and Parker won't be branded as the "6th best" or "6th option" if he came off the bench either, so ego should be a non-issue here.
Here is what I think - in my opinion, Parker fulfills the role of the "instant offense" bench player that we sorely need. Ginobili used to fill this roll, and Ginobili can still fill it decently, but the caveat is Ginobili is a better facilitator than Parker.
Parker's playmaking abilities are linear and somewhat predictable, at best, and I think it has to do with his specific style of driving to the basket. The way parker drives to the basket and the way ginobili drives to the basket are very different.
Ginobili's drives to the basket appear to draw double team more effectively and give the open man on the spurs more time/room than Parker drives to the basket.
However, Parker is a better 1 on 1 "instant offense" "do it by myself" guy than Ginobili. Parker has that little tear drop/floater in the lane (which Ginobili has actually attempted as of recent, but isn't nearly as good as it as parker is) that is just money, and he can maneuver around with shorter dribbles/shorter but quicker steps. Ginobili is more of a longer stride guy and as far as "instant offense" goes, Ginobili is not as good as Parker in terms of doing it by himself
Parker can do it "by himself" more effectively than Ginobili. Why? Because Parker has an easier time getting into the heart of the paint by himself whereas Ginobili sometimes has to rely relatively more on jump shots. Relatively more is key here. I know Ginobili is an excellent slasher and can virtually get to the rim at will, but Parker with his "shorter" dribbling and short but quick steps simply has an easier time penetrating into the heart of the paint. For some reason (maybe due to his size, maybe due to his positioning while in the paint which is not perceived to be as large a threat as ginobili), Parker does not draw double teams as well as Ginobili does and therefore when Parker does his little drive and kick out to the wing, it's not nearly as effective as when Ginobili does it.
Ginobili can do it by himself plenty well, but more importantly, he flat out has better court vision than Parker and seems to give his teammates better, easier opportunities than Parker's facilitation.
It's precisely for these reasons that I think Ginobili should stay in the starting lineup, and Parker should come off the bench as the 6th man.
duncan has sucked much more since tp has been outYeah, because only Tony can pass him the ball in the low block
Again, this is about who starts the game. I think we can all agree Tony and Tim would be part of our lineup to close out close games.
oh this team lost to the nets without tp
rj and manu off the bench would be fine
if rj is all that he will still attack with tp
it was not tp fault rj refused to attack with tp and settle with those long jumpers
oh and tp when he comes back from injury is not rusty like other players
he is sharp
ditto
if rj can only play with manu bring him off the bench
if rj can only play with manu does that mean manu has to be resigned to play with rj and whatever cost?
Attack does not exclusively mean "give me the ball and let me work either an isolation play where I get to the rim or have someone set a pick/screen for me and I get to the rim"
Many, many times in the past month we've seen Ginobili the one to drive initially, drawing some sort of double team and causing some sort of chaos with the opposing team defense, and then RJ taking advantage of this "chaos" and receiving the ball from ginobili while going hard to the rim. That also cons utes "attacking the rim," and it's that form of attacking (where RJ is really the secondary attacker) that flounders due to a lack of chemistry between Parker and RJ.
That's precisely why RJ hasn't been bashful about openly saying that he prefers to play with Ginobili. Ginobili sets him up better.
You make it sound like RJ has the ability to catch the ball up top and create his own shot at the rim. He's not that kind of player. Parker can do that, Ginobili can do that, but RJ can't do it as well (although he obviously can do it under some cir stances)
What RJ can do really well is receive the ball from an initial drive that draws a strong double team (occurs with Ginobili, especially) and attack the rim as a secondary attacker, and finish.
What part of "injured shooting hand" are you not comprehending? Oh wait, nevermind.
you summed it up well.
Surely at this time of the season , pop wont lose sight of this. We know along with scoring, Tony and Manu are easily the best creators on this team. Manu however does a better job of recognizing his teammates strengths, plus reading defenses better. He will put them in their best positions to score. Not just RJ but also Hill, Dice and TD. Dice these days is missing shots he should be making. He will break out of that slump. Tim for a long time now has been showing signs of wear and tear (before Tony's injury). Some days his limp is more obvious than other days. Having Manu in there lessens the burden on him to score or atleast gets him easier shots running the P'n'R.Ginobili can do it by himself plenty well, but more importantly, he flat out has better court vision than Parker and seems to give his teammates better, easier opportunities than Parker's facilitation.
It's precisely for these reasons that I think Ginobili should stay in the starting lineup, and Parker should come off the bench as the 6th man.
Another big factor which wasn't available earlier in the season is that opposing teams are just so fucused on containing Manu now, that it frees up others even before he makes a move. It would be crazy not to milk it as much as possible.
Something Pop even with his ways will not ignore, defensively as a unit the spurs are doing the best the've done all season.
Stop with this. Truth is Tim is still getting fed in the post from RJ, Hill and Manu. It's pretty clear he is struggling and depending on the match-up will continue to. All you can hope for is that once the play-offs start with rest he will pull up better health-wise.
For now, I would rather see Manu run the offense and get Tim some easy baskets so his confidence remains above-average going into the play-offs.
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