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fisher may be stupid, and old but if you leave him open he will destroy your heart and make shots in the end of games.
I gave you the Lakers great record with Fisher on the roster and their failures without him on the team..
You agree that Phil and Kobe have a lot of trust in him..he's obviously a good leader and intangibles guy..
I don't really know what else you want..your alternatives are Farmar and Brown..
The Lakers success(or lack thereof) with/without Fisher, his numerous clutch shots and his great intangibles speak volumes about his ability to keep his composure and step up in big games, at least IMO..
fisher may be stupid, and old but if you leave him open he will destroy your heart and make shots in the end of games.
Kobe gets the same deal. I've seen Kobe have subpar games (like today) and then hit a couple of shots down the stretch and all is forgotten. If the Lakers win today is anyone talking about Kobe shooting bricks the entire game or playing crap defense? Nope. I've seen Kobe miss a ton of shots and look horrendous down the stretch of games. The Miami game I mentioned. Kobe looked like crap down the stretch of that game. Airballing a layup. Airballing a jumper over Wade. Fisher hits a miracle shot giving LA life and enabling Kobe a chance to hit the game winner. Suddenly the airballs are forgotten. Kobe is "clutch" againIt's a two-way street.
Are you kidding me? Derek Fisher is the one who buried the Spurs in the 2001 WCF with his 75% three-point shooting. Fisher also had the clutch foul on Brent Barry in 08.
No, you gave me the Lakers great record with Shaq and Pau Gasol on the team. That you attribute that record to Fisher would be funny if you weren't actually dead serious.
The rest of this post is, like the first one you made, irrelevant to the OP and filled with assertations that are flawed at best.
I think Bob Lanier has it right in this thread. To say someone is clutch means they always come through in pressure situations, which means nobody is clutch.
Kobe has failed tons of times in clutch situations, but to say he's a choker is ridiculous. Dirk has, i think, hit more gamewinners than anybody else in the past few years, but you'd be hard pressed to find a non-Mavs fan who considers Dirk "clutch".
Tom Brady was considered a tremendous clutch quarterback for most of his career. Then came the AFCCG collapse and 18-1 the next season. Now is he a "choker"? Meanwhile, Peyton Manning has choked in damn near every pressure situation of his career. But he has a ring. Does his Rex Grossman giftwrapped SB win make him "clutch"?
That's why it's stupid to define players as "clutch" or "not clutch". IMHO either a guy has the balls to step up in a pressure situation, and has varying degrees of success in those moments, or someone "chokes" by feeling the pressure and crumbling.
Kobe has made more clutch plays this season than Fisher has his entire career.Kobe gets the same deal. I've seen Kobe have subpar games (like today) and then hit a couple of shots down the stretch and all is forgotten. If the Lakers win today is anyone talking about Kobe shooting bricks the entire game or playing crap defense? Nope. I've seen Kobe miss a ton of shots and look horrendous down the stretch of games. The Miami game I mentioned. Kobe looked like crap down the stretch of that game. Airballing a layup. Airballing a jumper over Wade. Fisher hits a miracle shot giving LA life and enabling Kobe a chance to hit the game winner. Suddenly the airballs are forgotten. Kobe is "clutch" again
Whats that series got to do with clutch? Besides, not much chance for clutch play when you're kicking the Spurs ass by 20 a game.
Clutch foul on Brent Barry was just another end of game blunder. The refs bailed us out on that one, not Fisher.
That thread was obviously half-joking/trolling to Al-Quobe, but it's still interesting to see the impact that Fisher has had on the Lakers IMO..
You keep asking us to tell you why Fisher is clutch, yet you haven't given any good examples of why he isn't clutch..Fisher's clutch shots and intangibles are clearly a better argument than anything you can come up with for why Fisher isn't clutch..
You're saying a few clutch shots doesn't make him clutch, yet the only examples you've provided are a few moments where he missed the GW or game-tying shots..you then said he's just a role player, which is obviously true, but then you gave examples like asking where he was vs. Boston and Detroit, which is something that generally isn't asked when it comes to role players..
I guess you never heard the saying..."so and so is good IN THE CLUTCH". As in Clutch situations...or pressure situations. So it's exactly what you're talking about with choking and not choking. All you're doing is using different words there pal.
You're talking about players not letting the pressure get to them, well that's the same thing that happens when players can perform "in the clutch". When someone says someone "is clutch" all that is, is the short way for saying they perform during clutch situations. AKA not choke.
So yeah, you can't say there isn't a thing as being "clutch", but also say players can choke or not choke. It's the same exact thing.
Also while it might not be possible for players to physically improve or get better athletically, just because it's a "clutch situation" it's silly to deny that a "clutch player" (or a player that doesn't choke) doesn't get a distinct advantage over other players in those situations.
I mean you just said yourself that some players tighten up while others don't. Well if a player who's butthole tightens up in those situations is stuck guarding another player who stays loose despite the heat/stress, you seriously don't think that the loose player doesn't get a edge in that situation? Not to mention the confidence factor of hitting those shots before. You just think it was some giant coincidence that Big shot Bob kept popping up during some of the biggest moments the last decade? If a player has been there and done that and has experience of being in that situation before, he's also going to have a advantage over a player who hasn't and doesn't know how to handle that stress/situation. So yes, on the mental factor of the game alone some players EASILY get a advantage over other players in the clutch or high pressure situations.
Last edited by Tmac&Luther; 04-12-2010 at 12:44 AM.
That's a flawed argument. Clutch players are players that welcome/want the ball in big game situations and can excel in it more often than not...
Tommy Lasorda once said there's three type of people at a baseball game (sporting event). Those that make things happen, those that watch things happen, and those that wonder what the just happened.
Same thing goes for players on the court/field.
Clutch players/non chokers have a knack for "making things happen" when everybody else is on edge.
Last edited by Tmac&Luther; 04-12-2010 at 12:39 AM.
Kobe can't do without Fisher
On the flip side though, Fisher can't do without Kobe. It's still a team sport.
The missed shots, defensive blunders, and horrible end of game decisions i'm pretty sure I mentioned. Just off the top of my head he's blown games vs Denver, Boston, and Portland this year and almost cost us games vs a few others. That crap you saw today fouling Webster with no reason to was just par for the course for him, he blatantly fouls people at the end of the game almost every other game, its come to be expected.
He can make clutch shots. But its much more likely he'll do something stupid to us.
Didn't read the whole thread yet, but I've always felt that "clutch" (for the most part) is a product of selective memory and hype.
In my mind, a player who goes 15 for 20 throughout the game but happens to miss 5 straight shots down the stretch is a lot more "clutch" than a player who goes 7 for 20 but made 5 straight buckets in the closing moments to win the game. No one moment is more important than the next in a basketball game. The whole "when it counts" time frame of the 4th quarter is nonsense. The first 5 min of the 1st quarter are just as important as the last 5 min of the 4th.
Spoken for truth.Kobe gets the same deal. I've seen Kobe have subpar games (like today) and then hit a couple of shots down the stretch and all is forgotten. If the Lakers win today is anyone talking about Kobe shooting bricks the entire game or playing crap defense? Nope. I've seen Kobe miss a ton of shots and look horrendous down the stretch of games. The Miami game I mentioned. Kobe looked like crap down the stretch of that game. Airballing a layup. Airballing a jumper over Wade. Fisher hits a miracle shot giving LA life and enabling Kobe a chance to hit the game winner. Suddenly the airballs are forgotten. Kobe is "clutch" again
With all due respect to Kobe and his fans, I just never thought he was that "clutch" (which is a tenuous concept at best that really can't be empirically proven). The stats show that he shoots the league average on game winners (around 30%); for the past few years, Lebron and Melo both have better numbers on 82games.com clutch stats, but yet the perception the media and his fans have created is of a player who rarely falters in big situations and is the "best closer in the game." Spurs fans do the same thing with Manu.
Not taking anything away from Bryant, but his clutch status has been severely overhyped and overrated.
LOL, Apparently you've never been stuck in a fox hole/hairy situation left depending on another person. People hate the war to sports analogy and some guy said there's no proven fact of being clutch in this thread, but why do you think that the US government does stress tests.
People react to stress differently than others and that's a scientific proven fact (some people get elevated heartbeats...others stay as cool as a cu ber) and it's ridiculous to say the stress level in the first couple of minutes of a ball game is remotely comparable to the amount of stress that's put on players in the closing moments of a close game
Some people/players can just deal with the stress applied better than other people/players. That's the difference between being "clutch or not a choker" and being just another guy. When you are in a do or die/win or lose situation the stress level is TOTALLY DIFFERENT....and the people that can deal with that stress are the people you want next to you or on your team in those situations.
It's all about dealing with stress and sorry pal, but when you need a basket to win a game or survive to move on......it's not the same as the shots you throw up in the 1st quarter when you are just feeling out the opposition and know you have PLENTY of time to build a lead.
Last edited by Tmac&Luther; 04-12-2010 at 01:53 AM.
You would be hard pressed to find any NBA player...GM..scout or coach taken any player of Kobe in crunchtime.
Simple as that.
Foxhole analogy doesn't work. I'm talking about "clutch", or a term I much prefer "performing under pressure," as it relates to sports, which can never be as stressful as a combat situation. The body reacts differently under a real life threatening situation than it does under compe ive pressure. War and sports are simply two totally different scenarios that can't be compared.
And clutch really can't proven. The sample size of shots attempted (or FTs, or Assists dished out, or steals, etc) for any one given player is too small to extract any meaningful results. At those numbers, luck plays a big part in the outcome.
I agree that they are better performers under pressure. Some people are simply blessed with better fine motor skills that don't get affected as much as the next guy when the pressure's on. But "clutch" as the media and sports fans have defined it is a bit of an illusion. You can't logically state that a player who shoots below his season average in a game but hits the game winner is "clutch." Law of averages dictate that the shot had a pretty good chance of going in.
For me a clutch performance is a player exceeding a good amount of his season averages in a game. I don't agree with how the perception of "clutch" is reduced to the 4th quarter or the closing moments of a game.
Coaches and GMs have indulged in hype before. Nothing new. They do it all time when the media sticks a microphone in their face or interviews them.
Kobe is 30% lifetime on game winners. He's right at the league average. He's made the most but also missed the most. There's nothing to suggest that Kobe is anymore dangerous in those situations than another top-tier player, many of whom have better overall "crunch time" stats than Kobe.
I've been watching him his entire career and I've said Kobe is the best selective memory player of all time. His game winners are more spectacular and memorable than most and he makes you forget about the 3 missed shots leading up to that point (or his 10 for 27 shooting night), which has happened A LOT throughout his career.
War and sports CAN be compared (and this is coming from somebody who serves), people just don't like to hear the comparisons because it's not politically correct and some people find it offensive, but military people and the sports community draw those comparisons ALL THE TIME
Why do you think the sports world uses the words like "leader" and "veteran"...or how we have been through the "battles" to act like they aren't comparable is a joke...it's all compe ion, the only difference is when you lose in war, you die. Still compe ion that raises stress levels.
Also being clutch has NOTHING to do with season averages, so I really don't understand that argument, it has to do with a player having a knack to hit big shots......does that mean he makes all the big shots? nope, but he'll hit more than his fair share. I mean how are you going to type something like this...
and then say you don't think there's anything as being "clutch".I agree that they are better performers under pressure. Some people are simply blessed with better fine motor skills that don't get affected as much as the next guy when the pressure's on.
Stress is stress. I don't care if someone has a gun pointed at you......you have to make that game winning shot....or you have a big test to take tomorrow that will decide if you get that degree or not (which BTW, some students are now taking anti anxiety medicine at test time) Stress is stress and the people that can deal with stress better during what situation they may be in at the time can naturally handle that situation better.
Stress has scientifically been proven to have a effect on people and it's been proven that people can handle stress differently, so it's crazy to think that in late game situations, some players don't NATURALLY handle those situations better than others.
Last edited by Tmac&Luther; 04-12-2010 at 02:44 AM.
Let me ask you this, do you consider Ginobili clutch?
We're getting off track here. We're not talking about the validity of symbolic comparisons between war and sports. You compared being in a foxhole with taking a big shot in a basketball game. No matter how big that shot is, the body won't react the same way as if it's having its life threatened. The reactions might be somewhat similar, but not identical. Never seen someone throw up at the charity stripe before attempting a critical freethrow, Or a veteran basketball player complain of PTSD. Stress is stress but there are different levels of stress.
Why do you think the sports world uses the words like "leader" and "veteran"...or how we have been through the "battles" to act like they aren't comparable is a joke...it's all compe ion, the only difference is when you lose in war, you die. Still compe ion that raises stress levels.
Also being clutch has NOTHING to do with season averages, so I really don't understand that argument, it has to do with a player having a knack to hit big shots......does that mean he makes all the big shots? nope, but he'll hit more than his fair share. I mean how are you going to type something like this...
and then say you don't think there's anything as being "clutch".
Stress is stress. I don't care if someone has a gun pointed at you......you have to make that game winning shot....or you have a big test to take tomorrow that will decide if you get that degree or not (which BTW, some students are now taking anti anxiety medicine at test time) Stress is stress and the people that can deal with stress better during what situation they may be in at the time can naturally handle that situation better.
Stress has scientifically been proven to have a effect on people and it's been proven that people can handle stress differently, so it's crazy to think that in late game situations, some players don't NATURALLY handle those situations better than others.
And clutch has EVERYTHING to do with season/career averages. Those averages give us a baseline of what to expect from a player. I'm sure you heard the term "elevate your game?" Well if a 20-10 player during the regular season averages 30-15 during a championship run, he raised his game and is thus a "clutch performer."
Anyhow, I pretty much agree with you. Some people, for whatever reason, are able to keep it together under pressure better than others. My argument centers on how the media and fans alike have labeled players and performances "clutch" when they really aren't, and also how that definition seems only to reserved for late game situations. Never heard Shaq being called "clutch" but he was the driving force behind 3 straight les. When a player puts up the numbers he did during the 3 peat, that's "clutch," regardless of how many freethrows he missed or game winners he didn't hit.
I just believe the label shouldn't be thrown around so easily. A 45% shooter who goes 4-18 but hits a game winner shouldn't be called "clutch." Given his shooting average, it's a shot he should make. Chauncy Billups is a good example, "Mr Big Shot." The media has everyone believing he's this cold blooded SOB who'll stick a game winner in your face no matter the cir stances. Well, his FG% on game winners is a putrid 16%.
That's my point about this notion of "clutch" being somewhat of an illusion. It's mostly a product of selective memory and media hype.
I never said the situations were "identical" I said both situations create stress and stress has a effort on the body. They create different levels of stress, but stress nonetheless.
False. There's a bar set for great hitters, generally the bar used is batting .300.
"Clutch" plays are judged individually. When Kobe hits a gamewinner one night, he's clutch. When Kobe bricks a couple late free throws to lose a game, doesn't that automatically mean he choked? Yes it does.
In the world of clutch/choke, those are the only two outcomes. Either you're clutch or you choke. Meaning if you choke just once, you've still been a "choker". Which is why that line of thinking is stupid. So even if Kobe is "clutch" 80% of the time and "chokes" 20% of the time, to call him a clutch player is dumb. If I gave you a drink that was 80% water and 20% dog , would you drink it?
There's guys who crumble under pressure, and guys who don't. That's all. The clutch label is stupid.
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