Is the Duncan/Garnett debate finally settled?

[ohmwrecker]

Wanna bet? I'm serious. We can both transfer an amount to a paypal account owned by the site owners, for example.

I would do that, but I am not sure what we are betting on.

[duncan228]

Meanwhile...

Garnett suspended for Game 2 of playoff series

Kevin Garnett has been suspended by the NBA for the Boston Celtics second playoff game against the Miami Heat.

The one-game suspension was imposed Sunday for hitting Quentin Richardson of the Miami Heat in the head with an elbow with 40 seconds left in Boston’s 85-76 win in Game 1 on Saturday night.

The league also fined Richardson $25,000.

The altercation occurred near Miami’s bench while Boston’s Paul Pierce lay on the floor with an apparent right shoulder injury. Garnett said he wanted to make room for Pierce as Heat players stood nearby. During the confrontation, Garnett and Richardson exchanged words.

[ohmwrecker]

Like I was saying . . .

[benefactor]

I disagree Garnett is a hothead. He may act like one, but hotheads play out of control and do stupid things that hurt their team.

Meanwhile...

Garnett suspended for Game 2 of playoff series

Kevin Garnett has been suspended by the NBA for the Boston Celtics second playoff game against the Miami Heat.

The one-game suspension was imposed Sunday for hitting Quentin Richardson of the Miami Heat in the head with an elbow with 40 seconds left in Boston’s 85-76 win in Game 1 on Saturday night.

The league also fined Richardson $25,000.

The altercation occurred near Miami’s bench while Boston’s Paul Pierce lay on the floor with an apparent right shoulder injury. Garnett said he wanted to make room for Pierce as Heat players stood nearby. During the confrontation, Garnett and Richardson exchanged words.

[NFGIII]

Meanwhile...

Garnett suspended for Game 2 of playoff series

Kevin Garnett has been suspended by the NBA for the Boston Celtics second playoff game against the Miami Heat.

The one-game suspension was imposed Sunday for hitting Quentin Richardson of the Miami Heat in the head with an elbow with 40 seconds left in Boston’s 85-76 win in Game 1 on Saturday night.

The league also fined Richardson $25,000.

The altercation occurred near Miami’s bench while Boston’s Paul Pierce lay on the floor with an apparent right shoulder injury. Garnett said he wanted to make room for Pierce as Heat players stood nearby. During the confrontation, Garnett and Richardson exchanged words.

I think we have another example of the lack of mental toughness here. Game won and he goes ahead and does that? Pretty flimsy excuse about trying to clear space for his bro PP. For whatever reason he just plain and simple lost it and took it out on the Heat. Real smart there KG.

[m33p0]

punching a rookie during practice just because he was having a good game doesn't qualify as being a hot head?

[mogrovejo]

No, they weren't close at their peaks, Harlem. Statistically, yes. Impact wise? No. Duncan was an elite rim protector and help defender that could single handedly anchor a defense, as well as a dread naught pivot scorer who had to be double and occasionally even triple teamed. That meant that an entire offense could be based off of him and run through him. Garnett couldn't be counted on to do either of these things.

Too bad that Duncan never anchored a defence as good as the one Garnett anchored in 2008.

He is a smart basketball player, but I don't think his at ude did anything to help his team until he got to the Celtics and had some other vets to support him.
A fake tough guy is a dude who acts tough, but when it comes to actually fighting someone his own size, he runs. I've seen KG do this his entire career. He is a bully and usually picks on smaller players.

I find that odd. I know lots of pro basketball players. They don't want to fight. KG is a pro, he's not playing in some street playground, of course he don't want to fight people.

He picks on bigger players a lot; for some odd reason people just liked that fable and ran away with it. Fans will be fans.

I think we have another example of the lack of mental toughness here. Game won and he goes ahead and does that? Pretty flimsy excuse about trying to clear space for his bro PP. For whatever reason he just plain and simple lost it and took it out on the Heat. Real smart there KG.

How many times have that happened?

[mogrovejo]

I would do that, but I am not sure what we are betting on.

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost...&postcount=120

Never said anything of the kind. He was, absolutely, the best player on the '08 Celtics. You don't really seem to be comprehending what is being said.

[mogrovejo]

Lies, damn lies and statistics; I trust my own eyes..

That's very wise if you're a Duncan fan trying to put down Garnett. Advanced basketball analytics won't be nice for the guys trying to make that case.

One way to see how undervalued Garnett was and how much worse his supporting casts were relatively to Duncan's is to see how their teams performed when they were out of the floor.

[TDfan2007]

Okay so let's compare these two in their primes (2001-2007):

Scoring
This category is probably where Tim has the greatest edge. KG had one patented go-to move, the baseline turnaround. It was a solid move (since he never got called for shuffling his feet as he did it) that was unblockable. Garnett also had arguably the best mid-range J of any big man along with Dirk.

Tim didn't have a go-to move. His bank-shot was indefensible unless you crowded him, in which case he'd blow by you. He had every post move in the book (moves, counter-moves, left hand, right hand, etc.) and could even shoot pull up jumpers with a relatively high percentage. Tim's only offensive weakness was FT shooting. He was too strong for quick guys and too quick for strong guys.

Advantage Tim

Passing:

KG averaged more assists, but that was based purely on the different offensive schemes the Spurs and Wolves ran. KG would make great passes to cutters and 3 point shooters from the top of the key while Tim would do most of his damage passing out of double-teams (often here he wouldn't get the assist because his pass would lead to an extra swing then shot). Later on when the offense was more diversified Tim showed he could make those passes from the top of the key (mainly to Tony) as well. Both guys are two of the best passing big men ever.

Advantage: even

Defense:

KG was the slightly better rebounder statistically, I'm not entirely sure what else to base this on. KG was better at pressuring the ball handler off pick and rolls, but Tim was also amazing at hedging and recovering. Tim was the better shotblocker while KG was better at playing passing lanes. KG was more versatile, Tim was more effective. Tim's advantage was in protecting the paint, which forced teams to take much lower percentage shots against the Spurs defense. This ability of Tim to play game-changing defense is what gives him the slight edge here.

Advantage: Tim

Intangibles:

Both were fantastic leaders, Tim really didn't start leading the Spurs till 2003, but from that point forward there was no better leader in the NBA. KG had an intensity and compe ive fire that had to rub off on his teammates. He was a great team player (sometimes to a fault).

As far as clutch play and elevating one's game in the playoffs, it isn't even close. Tim is one of the best playoff performers in the past 20 years along with Jordan and Shaq. No big man has been more clutch than Tim (arguments can be made for Dirk). Games 5 and 7 of the 2006 WCSF against Dallas are all the proof one needs, but if you want take a look at Game 6 of the 2005 WCSF (goes ape in the 4th against a VERY physical Sonics team despite an ankle sprain) and game 7 of the 2005 Finals are good examples too.

Advantage: Tim

As far as teammates go, once again, Tim didn't have much from 2001-2004 and he still won 1 championship and got out of the first round every year. Oh and in 2000 without Tim, the same team that won a championship the year before got annihilated in the first round 3-1.

So yes, it's closer than most Spurs fans will admit, but even in their primes Tim had the edge.

[Blackjack]

I'm off to the game but you're ridiculous.

I'm not putting down KG's game but the persona he portrays and the clowns that feel the need to take down Tim, or demean him, to make a case for Garnett.

Tim > KG; get over it, you'll live a much happier life.

[mogrovejo]

The idea that they were even in passing is just too far-fetched. It's just too ridiculous. Garnett is probably the best passing big man of the last 20 years. He's a higher assist rate than Webber. The idea that Garnett didn't have the ability to play game-changing defence is just too bizarre as well.

This conversation is difficult because you guys are Spurs and Duncan fans and are too emotionally invested. So you end up making outlandish declarations that make an interesting debate almost impossible.

[mogrovejo]

I'm off to the game but you're ridiculous.

All right, but I'm not the kind of person that engages in conversation with persons who resort to this kind of nonsense and lack of manners.

I'm not putting down KG's game but the persona he portrays and the clowns that feel the need to take down Tim, or demean him, to make a case for Garnett.

Nobody here put down Duncan. I really don't care about the persona. I care about the players personality to the extent it impacts their basketball production. The rest is just stuff I have little or no interest for.

[ohmwrecker]

http://spurstalk.com/forums/showpost...&postcount=120

Again, I never said that Garnett wasn't the best player on the '08 Celtics. So, if that is the bet . . . I guess, I win. Feel free to send me some money.
If you are suggesting that we bet on something as subjective as how "most" Spurs fans feel about KG and why, then I have no idea how we could reasonably determine a definitve answer.

[da_suns_fan]

LOL Spurs fan. For years Garnett fan said that he was just as good as TD but just on a crappy team.

The first year KG is on a good team, he makes it to WCF. The second time, he wins a championship.

KG was always the far superior talent.

[mogrovejo]

Again, I never said that Garnett wasn't the best player on the '08 Celtics. So, if that is the bet . . . I guess, I win. Feel free to send me some money.
If you are suggesting that we bet on something as subjective as how "most" Spurs fans feel about KG and why, then I have no idea how we could reasonably determine a definitve answer.

Huh? I've never said you made such a statement. Where did you get that idea from? Here's what I wrote:

The fact that are so many Spurs fans that believe Garnett wasn't the best player in the Celtics 08 team...

I can easily provide links to posts authored by many Spurs fans in this board, for example, stating exactly that, in many different ways.

[BillMc]

Garnett is a top 15 power forward of all time. Maybe top ten.

Duncan is #1.

The only place Garnett is better is fantasy land, like that old commercial where Duncan needed the entire neighborhood to guard him...

[Mixability]

Whenever theres a question of who to start a franchise with, Duncans name is always in the mix with Kobe, Jordan, Kareem, Bird, etc. I've never heard anyone mentioning putting their franchises trust in a player like KG.

[TD 21]

Too bad that Duncan never anchored a defence as good as the one Garnett anchored in 2008.

03-04 Spurs, I'm fairly certain, have the best single season defensive efficiency mark of all-time. Even if they slightly trail the 07-08 Celtics, look how many plus defenders that team had compared to the Spurs teams Duncan anchored post-Robinson. He clearly had a bigger impact defensively.

[Fernando TD21]

I was a fan of Garnett before he started acting like an idiot. Very talented and versatile player.
This article has some interesting takes in the comments section. I'll copy and paste a comment regarding the difference in talent level between Duncan's supporting cast and Garnett's supporting cast:

First championship in the strike shorten year of 98-99 the top three players were Tim Duncan, David Robinson, and Sean Luck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_Lu ck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_.

Duncan 21.7 points per game, Robinson 15.8 points per game, and Luck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_Lu ck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_Luck_The_Fakers_ 11.2 point per game.

Role players
Avery Johson
Mario Elie
Jaren Jackson

Kevin Garnett's team of 98-99
Kevin Garnett 20.8 points per game
Stephon Marbury 17.7 points per game
Terrell Brandon 14.2 points per game
Joe Smith 13.7 points per game
Sam Mitc 11.2 points per game

Role players:
Anthony Peeler
Dennis Scott
Malik Sealy
Bobby Jackson
Dean Garrett

The Spurs only had three players averaging double digits in points the Timberwolves had five players in double digits in scoring.

How about 2002-2003 season for the Spurs and their next championship

Spurs scorers
Tim Duncan 23.3 points per game
Tony Parker 15.5 points per game
Stephen Jackson 11.8 points per game
Malik Rose 10.4 points per game

Role players:
David Robinson
Bruce Bowen
Manu Ginboli
Steve Smith
Speedy Claxton

Timberwolves scorers:
Kevin Garnett 23 points per game
Wally Szczerbiak 17.6 points per game
Troy Hudson 14.2 points per game
Rasho Nesterovic 11.2 points per game

Role Players:
Kendall Gill
Anthony Peeler
Joe Smith
Rod Strickland
Gary Trent

I don't think the talent level is so far apart as some people claim.

BUT Tim's game was never in doubt and is light years ahead of Duncan's

Btw, it's amazing how Spurs fans are so extremely insecure about Duncan and always worried about being underrated or better than this or that. That's one thing fans from other teams are always saying in the NBA forum and I have to reckon they're absolutely right. Not sure if it's amusing or sad.

Most fans do that. It's funny how you mention Spurs fans doing this for Duncan and even add that fans from other teams talk about this. Yet you ignore the fact that Lakers fans will do that for Kobe, Cavs fans will do that for Lebron, Dallas fans will do it for Dirk, etc...

Oh, the irony . . .



Great take. We shouldn't listen to how players and teammates talk about and act around someone; put any stock into the validity of Marbury's issues because he was a malcontent (issues that many had but were either more mature, more professional or not talented enough to say much about); or put any stock into how a guy has a significant change in approach and demeanor after constant criticism for coming up short and coming off as soft.
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The reason why Garnett doesn't play the low post game is because he doesn't have the physical traits to do it. How can you bang if you don't have the lower body strength to hold position?

I actually agree with this. Garnett is athletically superior to Duncan regarding speed and jumping but when it comes to strength Duncan has the edge.

[ohmwrecker]

Huh? I've never said you made such a statement. Where did you get that idea from? Here's what I wrote:

The fact that are so many Spurs fans that believe Garnett wasn't the best player in the Celtics 08 team...

I can easily provide links to posts authored by many Spurs fans in this board, for example, stating exactly that, in many different ways.

OK. Why would I want to bet on something I don't believe to be true?