Rick Carlisle's Teams Known For Not Fouling?

[GSH]

One of the commentators announced that Rick Carlisle's teams have always been known for not fouling. The comment was in reference to the FT disparity, which he claimed was normal against a Rick Carlisle team. He went so far as to say that Carlisle's players are taught to play defense without fouling. The obvious inference was that the Spurs were getting killed at the line because they are not coached on how to play defense without fouling.

I called bull on that one at the time. So after the game, I went and had a look. Here are the foul totals for all of Carlisle's teams vs. Pop's, for the same years. (Regular season, 82 games ea.) See what you think:

Total Fouls Per Season - Carlisle teams vs. Popovich teams
Year Carlisle Pop
2002 1,695 1,575
2003 1,748 1,672
2004 1,709 1,667
2005 1,890 1,717
2006 1,821 1,714
2007 1,912 1,588
2008 1,537
2009 1,600 1,546
2010 1,563 1,669

Damn... it looks to me like something changed pretty drastically when he started coaching Dirk Nowitzki. I don't know why his old teams were known for not fouling, but it makes sense now that he's in Dallas. Somehow I don't beleive his coaching suddenly got that much better.

People can say what they want about tonight's game, but the difference was the whistles. With 3:19 left in the third quarter, the FT disparity was 20-4 in favor of the Mavericks - and that was before the Spurs had tried the first intentional foul on Dampier. The game was all but decided at that point. Not because of the score, but because the Spurs had been handcuffed on the defensive end. It's just like when someone is playing with 5 fouls, and trying to keep from fouling out. No player can step up and challenge on defense under those conditions.

For you Mavs trolls who will try and insist that the Hack-A-Damp distorted the numbers... guess again. It was used exactly 3 times - that's 3 fouls and 6 FT's. And like I said, the game was already in the bag by the time they did it.

If any of this is looking familiar to Spurs fans, it should. I'm going to post some stats below that none of the sports columnists ever talked about. They probably should have - but they didn't. I know some of you don't like to talk abut the officiating, but sometimes it's a pretty damned compelling story.

[GSH]

So, yeah, I'm going to dredge up the 06 playoffs. But only because this game reminded me of that series so much.


During the 06 regular season, the Spurs averaged 20.9 fouls per game.
Heads-up with the Mavs in the regular season, the Spurs averaged 21 fouls per game. Business as usual.

In the first round of the playoffs, the Spurs averaged 21.8 fouls per game against Sacramento. Pretty close to their season average. (The Mavs averaged 27.8 fouls per game against freaking Memphis in the first round.)

In the second round series against the Mavs, the Spurs averaged 24.5 fouls per game. That's a lot more than their regular season number. If it was a single game, it would be understandable. But over a 7-game series?

The real problem was that in the Spurs 3 wins in that series, they averaged 19.33 fouls - but in their 4 losses, they averaged 28.25 fouls per game! Funny, huh? During the regular season the Spurs committed just 21 fouls per game against the Mavs. The same for 3 playoff games. But in those 4 critical games, they suddenly couldn't play defense? Maybe they just needed Rick Carlisle to coach the team.

Tonight's game looked extremely familiar, because it was just like one of those 4 games we played in 06. If the whistles had been relatively fair back then, the Mavs would never have seen their first NBA Finals series. And if they would have been relatively fair tonight, the Spurs would be up 1-0, and we would be having a whole different set of conversations, along with Kenny and Charles and everyone else.

[m33p0]

if you heard it on tv it must be true.

[Biggems]

Carlisle wasnt there when the Mavs shot 50 FTs against us, as a jump shooting team a few years ago......in that 98 FTs in one game debacle. Carlisle wasnt there when Dirk started getting giftwrapped trips to the FT line back in 2006.

[DMX7]

Was this said on NBA TV? Who said it?

[alchemist]

just



cuz you're not winning this argument against mavfan.

[NewJerSpur]

I think people gloss over the officiating complaints because they claim are used to hearing this kind of thing from Spurs fans, but something was definitely fishy about this game and you didn't see that many Mavs fans hear running to vehemently their guys on this issue.

[GSH]

Was this said on NBA TV? Who said it?

It was on TNT. I don't remember which guy said it.

The point is, Carlisle's teams have never been known for playing defense without fouling before. It was an excuse, because the whistles were so lopsided, it was embarassing. This is a carbon copy of what we have seen before.

[m33p0]

It was on TNT. I don't remember which guy said it.

The point is, Carlisle's teams have never been known for playing defense without fouling before. It was an excuse, because the whistles were so lopsided, it was embarassing. This is a carbon copy of what we have seen before.

jeff van gundy most likely. he's known for pulling things out of his ass.

[siraulo23]

It was mike fratello~

[ajGambino]

So, yeah, I'm going to dredge up the 06 playoffs. But only because this game reminded me of that series so much.


During the 06 regular season, the Spurs averaged 20.9 fouls per game.
Heads-up with the Mavs in the regular season, the Spurs averaged 21 fouls per game. Business as usual.

In the first round of the playoffs, the Spurs averaged 21.8 fouls per game against Sacramento. Pretty close to their season average. (The Mavs averaged 27.8 fouls per game against freaking Memphis in the first round.)

In the second round series against the Mavs, the Spurs averaged 24.5 fouls per game. That's a lot more than their regular season number. If it was a single game, it would be understandable. But over a 7-game series?

The real problem was that in the Spurs 3 wins in that series, they averaged 19.33 fouls - but in their 4 losses, they averaged 28.25 fouls per game! Funny, huh? During the regular season the Spurs committed just 21 fouls per game against the Mavs. The same for 3 playoff games. But in those 4 critical games, they suddenly couldn't play defense? Maybe they just needed Rick Carlisle to coach the team.

Tonight's game looked extremely familiar, because it was just like one of those 4 games we played in 06. If the whistles had been relatively fair back then, the Mavs would never have seen their first NBA Finals series. And if they would have been relatively fair tonight, the Spurs would be up 1-0, and we would be having a whole different set of conversations, along with Kenny and Charles and everyone else.

I agree with you 100%. This game reminded me of 2006 all over again. It's funny to see a lot of people say that the officiating didn't contribute to the Spurs loss..but the thing is, it did. The calls were ridiculously lopsided and you would have to be completely biased to see otherwise. This is what pisses me off the most..and there's no one on the Spurs team that's going to complain about the refs because they're good sports about it. Yeah, Dirk had an awesome game...but he also went to the line as much as the ENTIRE SPURS TEAM COMBINED.

If you actually saw the entire game, the Spurs were getting calls that were mostly non-shooting fouls...and only when the Mavs had some breathing room did the refs start to call the fouls to even the foul comparison out. I admit, the Spurs didn't play their best basketball in game 1...but it was certainly enough to push it to a victory if the refs weren't literally controlling the game.

If the refs continue to be lopsided, this is going to be a heart-breaking series..because we're more than capable of beating this team.

[ZB 512]

I agree with you 100%. This game reminded me of 2006 all over again.

If you want to gauge it by comparing FT attempts, the Spurs shot more total free throws in the '06 series than Dallas did...and Duncan shot more total free throws in the '06 series than Dirk did

Dont let the facts get in the way of your whining though

[hsxvvd]

Be sure to bump this thread in 6 years time when the scandal is broken.

[ajGambino]

Dont let the facts get in the way of your whining though

You have your beliefs as I have mine. I am going to whine all I want because I believe that we are getting screwed. You don't believe so, then I guess we're at a disagreement.

..with that said, you.

[FromWayDowntown]

When Mavs fans complain about free throw shooting disparities, it is justified and prinicipled concern for the abysmal state of NBA officiating and clear proof of biases among the officials.

When Spurs fans talk about a free throw shooting disparity, it's whining.

[Fabbs]

With 3:19 left in the third quarter, the FT disparity was 20-4 in favor of the Mavericks - and that was before the Spurs had tried the first intentional foul on Dampier.

Great research.
Yes the baboon was Mike Fratello, and the other clown was Stockton. Neither have had a valid take in 20 years and both are most def ass kissers of the NBA should any obvious fix be on like last night. In light of your research on Carlisle and fouls one could conclude Fratello was simply lying and not just incompetent.

[DarrinS]

I hate ing about refs, but the FT disparity is especially weird given that the Spurs outscored the Mavs in the paint 50-34.

[BronxCowboy]

I hate ing about refs, but the FT disparity is especially weird given that the Spurs outscored the Mavs in the paint 50-34.

I was wondering about this... I was working and didn't get to see the game, so when I saw the boxscore and the FT disparity, I was like damn, was Dallas taking it to the rim that much more than the Spurs? I know the Spurs usually do a good job of keeping the good scorers off the FT line. In fact, I would say it's probably Popovich teams that are best known for playing defense without fouling... and Dejuan Blair didn't play that many minutes!

[DarrinS]

I was wondering about this... I was working and didn't get to see the game, so when I saw the boxscore and the FT disparity, I was like damn, was Dallas taking it to the rim that much more than the Spurs? I know the Spurs usually do a good job of keeping the good scorers off the FT line. In fact, I would say it's probably Popovich teams that are best known for playing defense without fouling... and Dejuan Blair didn't play that many minutes!

Everyone's talking about what a great game Dirk had, but Tim scored the same amount of field goals. The BIG difference is, Dirk was 12-12 from the stripe. Dirk did have an extremely efficient game (12 of 14 vs Tim's 12 of 20) and he did drive to the rim on a couple of occasions, but most of his shots were 15-20 foot fadeaways with the typical cattle-prod-up-my-ass reaction after the shot.

[GSH]

If you want to gauge it by comparing FT attempts, the Spurs shot more total free throws in the '06 series than Dallas did...and Duncan shot more total free throws in the '06 series than Dirk did

Dont let the facts get in the way of your whining though

First of all, pinhead, I'm one of the people who consistently say that the Mavs got jobbed in the Finals that same year. I don't remember a single one of you Mav trolls thinking it was whining when it happened to you.

The FT's between Tim and Dirk were almost identical in that 06 series - Tim had something like 3 more. That, despite the fact that Tim was at the peak of his game, and did most of his work near the rim, while Dirk was doing a lot of jump shooting. In case you haven't noticed, jump shooters usually don't draw as many whistles. And for the record, Tim scored 160 points from the field in that series vs. 117 for Dirk. (Wow... no , GSH? Tim knocked down that many more shots than Dirk? Yep. You never read that in SI, did you?)

The Spurs were the best defensive team in the league that year - both by the numbers, and by overall opinion. In 7 games that season, they played the Mavericks pretty consistently in terms of the number of fouls they committed. But in those 4 games, they suddenly became inept on the defensive end? It wasn't a matter of the Mavs getting hot and knocking down all their shots in those games - in fact, Dirk was totally stone cold in at least one of them. It was a matter of whistles constantly blowing. You also can't overlook things like them putting Tim into foul trouble very early, effectively taking him out of most of the game. Or fouling him out on a ridiculous call with the game on the line.

I don't like to see the damn zebras take over a game, even when it goes in the Spurs favor. I catch a lot of from people I watch games with, when I talk about terrible calls going against the other team. Last night, the refs were inconsistent, and kept the game from being compe ive. They did the same thing in the second half of the Boston-Miami game. And they did the same thing in the 2006 Playoffs - both for the Mavs, and against the Mavs.

[LnGrrrR]

Everyone's talking about what a great game Dirk had, but Tim scored the same amount of field goals. The BIG difference is, Dirk was 12-12 from the stripe. Dirk did have an extremely efficient game (12 of 14 vs Tim's 12 of 20) and he did drive to the rim on a couple of occasions, but most of his shots were 15-20 foot fadeaways with the typical cattle-prod-up-my-ass reaction after the shot.

To be fair, Dirk made some nice passes in the second half instead of taking jumpers.

He was getting alot of little foul calls, to be sure. But he was still making the shots. I view that as slightly better than someone who misses a ton of shots, and throws his arms up wildly in order to sink FT's.

What's strange is that the Spurs didn't adjust at all throughout the game. If they're going to call fouls on you for brushing Dirk, then you should foul him hard. I don't think Dirk got fouled hard once that game.

[TJastal]

One of the commentators announced that Rick Carlisle's teams have always been known for not fouling. The comment was in reference to the FT disparity, which he claimed was normal against a Rick Carlisle team. He went so far as to say that Carlisle's players are taught to play defense without fouling. The obvious inference was that the Spurs were getting killed at the line because they are not coached on how to play defense without fouling.

I called bull on that one at the time. So after the game, I went and had a look. Here are the foul totals for all of Carlisle's teams vs. Pop's, for the same years. (Regular season, 82 games ea.) See what you think:

Total Fouls Per Season - Carlisle teams vs. Popovich teams
Year Carlisle Pop
2002 1,695 1,575
2003 1,748 1,672
2004 1,709 1,667
2005 1,890 1,717
2006 1,821 1,714
2007 1,912 1,588
2008 1,537
2009 1,600 1,546
2010 1,563 1,669

Damn... it looks to me like something changed pretty drastically when he started coaching Dirk Nowitzki. I don't know why his old teams were known for not fouling, but it makes sense now that he's in Dallas. Somehow I don't beleive his coaching suddenly got that much better.

People can say what they want about tonight's game, but the difference was the whistles. With 3:19 left in the third quarter, the FT disparity was 20-4 in favor of the Mavericks - and that was before the Spurs had tried the first intentional foul on Dampier. The game was all but decided at that point. Not because of the score, but because the Spurs had been handcuffed on the defensive end. It's just like when someone is playing with 5 fouls, and trying to keep from fouling out. No player can step up and challenge on defense under those conditions.

For you Mavs trolls who will try and insist that the Hack-A-Damp distorted the numbers... guess again. It was used exactly 3 times - that's 3 fouls and 6 FT's. And like I said, the game was already in the bag by the time they did it.

If any of this is looking familiar to Spurs fans, it should. I'm going to post some stats below that none of the sports columnists ever talked about. They probably should have - but they didn't. I know some of you don't like to talk abut the officiating, but sometimes it's a pretty damned compelling story.

I love how people and whine about the # of fouls/disparities but never point out where bad calls actually happened.

[BronxCowboy]

What's strange is that the Spurs didn't adjust at all throughout the game. If they're going to call fouls on you for brushing Dirk, then you should foul him hard. I don't think Dirk got fouled hard once that game.

Dang, I wish I could have seen that game. You make a great point... if you're going to get whistled anyway, you have to start making it worthwhile.

[TJastal]

Everyone's talking about what a great game Dirk had, but Tim scored the same amount of field goals. The BIG difference is, Dirk was 12-12 from the stripe. Dirk did have an extremely efficient game (12 of 14 vs Tim's 12 of 20) and he did drive to the rim on a couple of occasions, but most of his shots were 15-20 foot fadeaways with the typical cattle-prod-up-my-ass reaction after the shot.

Most of his shots last night were not fadeaways, although he had a few in the 1st half. Most everything in the 2nd half he penetrated straight into the defender's chest, drew contact and then simply shot over the man. He did it to Bonner, Mason, Bogans just to name a few.

Can't say I like the way the game is called nowadays (where the offensive player literally initiates contact on a defender who is merely standing with arms raised) but its a fact that this is how it is now so you either adjust and take advantage of it (as Dirk is doing) or sit and whine about it (like you are doing).

[bigdog]

I want the Spurs doing absolutely nothing but going to the basket in the first half so the refs HAVE to make some calls. It's pathetic how much the refs control the game, especially right now. It's the playoffs. Get your heads out of your asses, refs. I'm not blaming the loss on the refs, but come on.