Free Throw Disparity

[ZB 512]

I'm not disputing any of this, but this doesn't take away the fact that Nowitzki draws an inordinate amount of calls in a way that defies logic. Why argue? I have no problem admitting that Bowen blatantly fouled James at the end of game three of the '07 finals. Or that Mason jumped on Dampier's back in game one, yet somehow wasn't called for a foul. It's not like you admitting it means he's not going to continue to get those calls. Take off the rose colored glasses.

The officiating is an absolute joke. Never won a thing Nowitzki digs his head into Bonner twice, falls away and get's rewarded with a call, but all-time great Duncan get's blatantly hammered on a drive and can't get a call.

It doesnt "defy logic" at all that he can draw fouls. I explained that to you

So only Duncan "earns his free throws the way you're supposed to earn them"? ...and Nowitzki doesnt? That is what you stated.

Your entire premise is screwed up and I can see that im wasting my time debating with you. Dirk isnt even an "all time great" according to you.

[sefant77]

Bull . If it is a foul on the perimeter (a push or contact), it is a foul down low.

Not really. I never saw something like that on the perimeter, you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJ3FXLyNFew

[DPG21920]

Just because you see it does not make it right. Which is Spurs fans point. Just because you want to justify why Dirk gets the calls he does, does not make it right.

[TD 21]

Why would you compare Nowitzki's fouls to Ginobili's and Parker's? Completely different. They get the majority of theirs on dribble drives. You know, attacking the basket. Nowitzki get's the majority of his shooting fade and fall away jumpers from the elbow.

Nowitzki definitely isn't an all-time great. He's a Hall of Famer, though. There is a difference. Duncan is an all-time great. I know you're all biased, but would any of you really be ignorant enough and have the audacity to put these two in the same class historically? Not only is there a major disparity in their resumes, but one is an all around player, unlike the other, who is one dimensional.

[ZB 512]

ZB 512, your not really getting it.
Dirk's FTA/FGA ratio for his career is 6.6/16.9. (39% for reference)
In 05/06 it was 7.0/18.2.
In 09/10 it was 7.2/18.5.

In the regular season
against the spurs 05/06 8/18, in the playoffs against the spurs
against the spurs 09/10 7/26

in the 05/06 playoff series, 11.4/15.7 (73%). Overall in playoffs (including the spurs data) he was 9.9/18.2 (9.3/19.3 w/o the Spurs).
In 09/10 the playoffs to date, he's 12/14.

In the 05/06 playoff series, and the current one to date, he, and the rest of the mavericks by the by, sticks out like a sore thumb compared to their career averages, their averages that year, their averages playing against the spurs that year, and their averages against other playoff opponents... it says to me, the whole tone of the officiating changes for that series.

Worse if was at both ends, the spurs perimeter players should see the same inflation; you'd think Ginobili, for example, would have his FT's go through the roof as well. Career 4.8/10.6. (45%)
05/06 regular season 5.5/10.3.
09/10 regular season 4.7/12 (yeah, he's been driving less this season, particularly early on...).
Against the Mavs,
05/06 regular season 8.67/12,
09/10 regular season 1/28 (yeah, this is a bit of an outlier, he didn't play the last game against you, only 7.5 minutes in the 2nd game against Dallas, and really was jumpshooting a LOT the other 2 times...)....

05/06 playoffs 8.6/12.9
09/10 playoffs so far 3/17

Those aren't out of line with his regular seasons against the Mavs, and not too bad on his career. The tone of the officiating only changes at one end of the court...

This is why Spurs fans get really pissed off about series against Dallas. It's like we're suddenly playing by FIBA rules rather than NBA rules.

yea and Dirk also averages 3 more rebounds in the playoffs compared to his regular season average

his career numbers across the board are higher in the playoffs than his regular season averages

[sefant77]

I'm not disputing any of this, but this doesn't take away the fact that Nowitzki draws an inordinate amount of calls in a way that defies logic. Why argue? I have no problem admitting that Bowen blatantly fouled James at the end of game three of the '07 finals. Or that Mason jumped on Dampier's back in game one, yet somehow wasn't called for a foul. It's not like you admitting it means he's not going to continue to get those calls. Take off the rose colored glasses.

The officiating is an absolute joke. Never won a thing Nowitzki digs his head into Bonner twice, falls away and get's rewarded with a call, but all-time great Duncan get's blatantly hammered on a drive and can't get a call.

The Mason foul before halftime and the Bonner touching the ellbow foul and the GDT went nuts. On the replay you saw it was a easy clear call and still everyone called the refs blind etc.

In Game 1 its way more stupid players doing stupid (!) fouls than refs giving out presents.

And of course the refs blew 1-2 fouls on Duncan. They also blew when Blair hammered Haywood on a dunk or when Gino travelled his ass...

Thats about the homer glasses...

[ZB 512]

They get the majority of theirs on dribble drives. You know, attacking the basket. Nowitzki get's the majority of his shooting fade and fall away jumpers from the elbow.

Dirk's style is conducive to drawing fouls similar to Kobe Bryant and Kevin Durant as I described earlier...although he doesnt draw nearly as many as those two, Dirk was 11th in FT attempts per game yet 6th in FG attempts per game. Dirk averaged 7 free throw attempts per game this season while those two averaged 10

Nowitzki definitely isn't an all-time great. He's a Hall of Famer, though. There is a difference. Duncan is an all-time great. I know you're all biased, but would any of you really be ignorant enough and have the audacity to put these two in the same class historically? Not only is there a major disparity in their resumes, but one is an all around player, unlike the other, who is one dimensional.

LOL wtf?

A Hall of Famer IS an all time great

[DPG21920]

No, HOF is not all time great. Especially in the basketball HOF. But that is another point.

[sefant77]

Just because you see it does not make it right. Which is Spurs fans point. Just because you want to justify why Dirk gets the calls he does, does not make it right.

Im more trying to justify that you shouldnt scream about the refs, you should scream more about Bonner/Mason/RJ/Bogans being stupid and playing stupid defense with stupid fouls (or stupid moves allowing refs to use their whistle).

[TD 21]

I've watched Nowitzki play literally hundreds of times. I think I have a pretty good idea of how he draws calls. It's the same idea most have. I'm not sure why you'd dispute that. Are you telling me he faces people up from 25 feet, beats them off the dribble, get's into the lane and draws his fouls that way? Get real.

No, a Hall of Famer isn't an all-time great. When I think of all-time greats, I'm thinking of top 10-15, maybe even 20 guys. Nowitzki isn't anywhere near that class, therefore he's not an all-time great.

[DPG21920]

Im more trying to justify that you shouldnt scream about the refs, you should scream more about Bonner/Mason/RJ/Bogans being stupid and playing stupid defense with stupid fouls...

This thread is about the FT disparity. And you could easily be ing about the Mav players getting called for stupid fouls if the contact that was a requisite for a foul on Dirk was the same for Tim.

[sefant77]

This thread is about the FT disparity. And you could easily be ing about the Mav players getting called for stupid fouls if the contact that was a requisite for a foul on Dirk was the same for Tim.

Hack a Damp (not just the 6, also hammering him always under the basket

Bonner/Mason/RJ/Bogans being stupid and playing stupid defense with stupid fouls (or stupid moves allowing refs to use their whistle).

Every roleplayer of the Spurs playing like a jumpshooting pussy

1-2 Homecourt calls

And the disparity isnt anymore so huge.

They blew 1-2 calls on Duncan, no doubt but the Spurs scrubs played incredible stupid defense on Dirk. Thats the point. Touching the ellbow during the shoot is rookie like.

[TD 21]

Jump shooting pussy, that's funny because that about sums up the Nowitzki era with the Mavs.

[pad300]

yea and Dirk also averages 3 more rebounds in the playoffs compared to his regular season average

his career numbers across the board are higher in the playoffs than his regular season averages

Dirk Nowitzki Carreer Playoffs FTA 870 over 1784 FGA.

Which is 48.7% << 73 % (never mind the 86% he's running so far in this series).

The 05/06 series, and this one so far, stick out like ing crazy, against playoff averages, regular season averages, career averages, averages playing the spurs, whatever. The tone of the officiating changes RADICALLY, and you simply do not see a corresponding shift in the Spurs FTA...

PS. FREE ADVICE, you could have looked at Dirk's playoff numbers yourself, and looked a lot less like a homer troll looking for excuses...

[sefant77]

Jump shooting pussy, that's funny because that about sums up the Nowitzki era with the Mavs.

You try to discuss here or just about Dirk?

blabla fourrings gots

[DPG21920]

Hack a Damp (not just the 6, also hammering him always under the basket

Bonner/Mason/RJ/Bogans being stupid and playing stupid defense with stupid fouls (or stupid moves allowing refs to use their whistle).

Every roleplayer of the Spurs playing like a jumpshooting pussy

1-2 Homecourt calls

And the disparity isnt anymore so huge.

They blew 1-2 calls on Duncan, no doubt but the Spurs scrubs played incredible stupid defense on Dirk. Thats the point. Touching the ellbow during the shoot is rookie like.

Blew 1-2 calls. If they called fouls for Tim for the same contact Dirk got hit with, there would have been at least 10 more FT's.

I don't disagree with the calls that Dirk got. I disagree with the no calls Tim got for way more contact.

[TD 21]

sefant77, learn to speak proper English before attempting to rip other people. Don't get mad at me because I used your own line against you and you came off looking like a bigger idiot than you already did, which is saying something.

[ZB 512]

Dirk Nowitzki Carreer Playoffs FTA 870 over 1784 FGA.

Which is 48.7% << 73 % (never mind the 86% he's running so far in this series).

The 05/06 series, and this one so far, stick out like ing crazy, against playoff averages, regular season averages, career averages, averages playing the spurs, whatever. The tone of the officiating changes RADICALLY, and you simply do not see a corresponding shift in the Spurs FTA...

PS. FREE ADVICE, you could have looked at Dirk's playoff numbers yourself, and looked a lot less like a homer troll looking for excuses...

Compare that to other great players and it's very similar.

..lets look at Manu Ginobili for example: 586 FTA, 1217 FGA

...Chauncey Billups for another example: 4455 FTA, 10,180 FGA

You cant look at such numbers in a vacuum like you are. Like I said, Dirk's playoff numbers are higher than his regular season numbers across the board.

[sefant77]

sefant77, learn to speak proper English before attempting to rip other people. Don't get mad at me because I used your own line against you and you came off looking like a bigger idiot than you already did, which is saying something.

I was glad about the discussion without trash talk. Jumpshooting pussys was a proper description for the way the role players played (i think i even read that here in thr GDT). It was one reason for lesser FT.

Your quote about Dirks career had nothing to do with the discussion, thats why i answered like that.

I didnt know you have to speak fluently perfect english before someone is allowed to rip a person that goes offtopic.

[DesignatedT]

Duncan should be shooting the same amount of free throws as dirk if not more. Duncan gets hammered on a regular basis down low with a no call and then they turn around and call a touch foul on the forearm for dirk.

I'm not saying Bonner didn't foul dirk or Mason didn't foul him BUT if you are going to call like that a foul then you better ing call it consistently on the other end (specifically on duncan)

I think that's what most of us are saying around here. It doesn't make sense.

[FromWayDowntown]

Dirk Nowitzki might well be the single greatest basketball player in the history of basketball players. Certainly more accomplished than a schmo like that dopey Tim Duncan.

[phxspurfan]

Another free throw thread!

[pad300]

Compare that to other great players and it's very similar...lets look at Manu Ginobili for example: 586 FTA, 1217 FGA

You cant look at such numbers in a vacuum like you are. Like I said, Dirk's playoff numbers are higher than his regular season numbers across the board.

Yep, 870/1784 (48.7%), Dirk, is indeed in at least the same ball park as 586/1217 (48.1%), Manu, which is why it's so bat crazy that Dirks FTA/FGA jumped to 73% for that series. I'd be willing to bet real money, that Dirk does not have another 7 game stretch in his career where he gets within 10% of that ratio (ie. achieves a 63% FTA/FGA ratio), assuming playing 20+ MPG...That's the equivalent of Matt Bonner suddenly starting to draw fouls like Dirk...

[ZB 512]

Yep, 870/1784 (48.7%), Dirk, is indeed in at least the same ball park as 586/1217 (48.1%), Manu, which is why it's so bat crazy that Dirks FTA/FGA jumped to 73% for that series. I'd be willing to bet real money, that Dirk does not have another 7 game stretch in his career where he gets within 10% of that ratio (ie. achieves a 63% FTA/FGA ratio), assuming playing 20+ MPG...

Duncan's ratio had an increase in that series as well and was higher than Dirk's. Duncan shot more FTs than Dirk on fewer FG attempts. It goes both ways buddy.

Anyway, like I said, you cant really look at those numbers in a vacuum. Every series is different. Some are more intense and more physical than others. You need to look at each series individually.

That's the equivalent of Matt Bonner suddenly starting to draw fouls like Dirk...

what?

I cant say I understand your point at all

[Mav-elous Man]

Any team with Dirk Nowitzki is going to get a ton of ticky tac bull calls. I honestly don't think there is a single player in the league that gets as many questionable calls as he does. Even more than Kobe, Wade, LeBron not to mention the guys I mention take it to the hoop a lot more than Dirk. Don't get me wrong Dirk is an amazing player but I've never seen a player benifit from the whistles more than Dirk.

Its funny you mention that because alot of fans of other teams around the league say the same thing about Tim Duncan. It's also funny how he and Manu always have this shocked look on there face with their hands raised in the air like they didn't do anything everytime they clearly foul. NEWSFLASH Timmy and Manu!!!! Yes sometimes you DO foul.