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  1. #126
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    Just because someone is a re doesn't mean you have to point it out.


    I don't know why Spurs fans are arguing though, Spurs won and not simply because of the refs, so who cares if Dirk got fouled 5 times.

  2. #127
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    Originally Posted by Tmac&Luther
    So he has rules that completely favors the guards today (well atleast "his star guards" ) and kills good post play/post defense.
    It's better today than in the 90s (when, btw, Sten was also the commissioner). The game today is way more similar to the 80s than it was 5,10 years ago.

    David Stern sucks and I can't wait until his ass is gone. What kind of commissioner doesn't allow teams to question the quality of their officials when it's obvious that the officiating is EXTREMELY questionable at best.
    Nosense, teams can question officiating. Heck, the league has a special software for that.

  3. #128
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Watch out!!! He knows the rules!!! Nobody else does!!!


  4. #129
    Believe. TD4THREE's Avatar
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    I really don't know what we would be betting on or exactly what your argument is. There have been several definitions on hand checking and incidental contact. It's pretty obvious to me what I posted was correct, if you tune into the Charlotte Orlando game you'll see exactly the kind of contact We're talking about and guess what? No calls.
    Last edited by TD4THREE; 04-26-2010 at 04:56 PM.

  5. #130
    Veteran in2deep's Avatar
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    mogrovejo sounds like a stupid asshole. no wonder he is a celtic fan

  6. #131
    Veteran Tmac&Luther's Avatar
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    Completely disagree; it's precisely the opposite. Without today's rules you'd see a lot more of jump-shots/a lot less of penetration and dribble drives.
    Without today's rules you'd see how great the game used to be.....back when players had deadly mid range jumpers and crazy back to the basket post moves. That part of the game was a uva lot more enjoyable then players going one on one and throwing up a three pointer or driving into someone and drawing a cheap foul call.

    Plus when of the reason why Stern said he changed the rules was because he wanted to open up the game and scoring..... the game was a LOT more high flying and exciting back in the 80s. There are sooo many crappy fouls called today that the action never really gets going.

  7. #132
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    Watch out!!! He knows the rules!!! Nobody else does!!!

    So, you can't do better than a strawman? Quelle surprise.

  8. #133
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    So, you can't do better than a strawman? Quelle surprise.
    Did you post the rules?

  9. #134
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    I really don't know what we would betting on or exactly what your argument is. There have been several definitions on hand checking and incidental contact.
    Really? I don't know. I know the NBA rules and the FIBA ones.

    My argument is that the kind and degree of contact the refs should allow depends on what is the player's position on the floor. It started with the "Dampier does the same thing with Duncan and it's never called a foul" argument.

  10. #135
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    Did you post the rules?
    What rules?

  11. #136
    Poppin' Champagne badfish22's Avatar
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    Spur Fan creates thread asking for objective opinions

    Spur Fan then gets butthurt when those objective opinions don't help their argument.

  12. #137
    Veteran Tmac&Luther's Avatar
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    It's better today than in the 90s (when, btw, Sten was also the commissioner). The game today is way more similar to the 80s than it was 5,10 years ago.
    What!



    Nonsense, teams can question officiating. Heck, the league has a special software for that.
    Not publicly...everything has to be behind closed doors. You openly question "his refs" you get slammed with a 100,000 dollar fine.

  13. #138
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    The rules this entire conversation is circling around and the one you've identified and been arguing since page 1 of this thread...

  14. #139
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    I agree with the bolded part. But jump-shots generally aren't easy points near the basket and and I don't see how the rules changes affected the transition game that much - in fact, if harsher defence was allowed, it would pump up transition scoring (more steals, turnovers, etc).

    If the rules were still the same, you'd actually see more jump-shots and more transition scoring.

    Your logic makes sence, but it doesn't hold up to the stats.

    http://www.nba.com/2009/news/feature...idge.defenses/



    Doc Rivers knew when his time was running out as a player.

    "The first year, they took my hand check away," Rivers recalled. "The next year, they took our forearm away. And then, I retired. I was done. I was like, 'I've got to move my feet? I quit. This is no fun anymore.'"

    For 13 seasons, Rivers made a very good living in the NBA as one of the league's best on-ball defenders. Tall (6-foot-4) and strong, able to use his hands to steer opponents away from the basket, able to clip guards moving without the ball from their desired routes around the court. But the style that helped his Hawks teams get to the Playoffs and that put his 1994 New York Knicks team in the Finals is now a relic, consigned to the basement in Pat Riley's head.

    You still have to play defense to win NBA championships. But now, you have to do it without fouling.

    With the Playoffs underway, the teams that can slow their opponents down without putting them on the free throw line have a decided advantage. But that's much harder than in Rivers' day, when the Knicks would establish how the game would be called in the first five minutes by being as physical as possible, daring referees to call every bump and hold. Most times, the refs would ultimately let a lot of contact go, which is precisely what Riley wanted.

    But the league has gradually legislated that kind of defense out of the game.

    Since 1990, the NBA has ins uted a series of rules changes to increase the offensive player's flow and make physical play costly. First came increased penalties for flagrant fouls (1990) and fighting (1993), the implementation of the "five points" rule that called for automatic suspensions of players who amassed a certain number of flagrants (1993). Hand checking was eliminated in 1994. Using the forearm to defend players facing the basket went away in 1997.

    In 1999, the league eliminated contact by a defender with his hands and forearms both in the backcourt and frontcourt, except on offensive players who caught the ball below the free throw line extended. Defenses were also prohibited from "re-routing" players off the ball. This freed up perimeter players who used screens to get open. Nor were defenders able any more to grab or impede offensive players setting screens. In 2001, the defensive three-second rule eliminated defenders camping out in the lane away from their offensive man to help.

    The rules changes did what they were supposed to do -- open up the game. Scoring average has increased from an average 95.6 points per game in the 1997-98 season to this year's 100 per game. Overall field goal percentage has increased from 45.0 percent in '97-'98 to 45.9 percent this season. Three-point percentage has gone up, from .346 11 years ago to .367 this season. And fouls have gone down, from a league average of 1,837 fouls in 1997 to 1,726 this season. The statistical-based Basketball Prospectus wrote at the beginning of this season that the game's pace -- defined as possessions per game -- had increased from its nadir during the lockout season of 1999 (around 88 possessions per game) to around 91 per game in the 2007-08 season.

    Free-flowing offense is now the norm, with players able to go almost unen bered anywhere on the court. As such, the game's most dominant individual players and those that are just good at drawing contact have even more of a chance to get to the foul line. So stars like Dwight Howard (the league leader in free throw attempts this season with 849), Dwyane Wade (second, 771) and LeBron James (third, 762) can have an even more outsized impact on games.

    "You can't even touch a guy now," says Charlotte coach Larry Brown. "The college game is much more physical than our game. I always tease Michael [Jordan], if he played today, he'd average 50."

    .....

  15. #140
    9mm nkdlunch's Avatar
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    mogrovejo sounds like a stupid asshole. no wonder he is a celtic fan

  16. #141
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    Without today's rules you'd see how great the game used to be.....back when players had deadly mid range jumpers and crazy back to the basket post moves. That part of the game was a uva lot more enjoyable then players going one on one and throwing up a three pointer or driving into someone and drawing a cheap foul call.
    Yeah, but then again they weren't as big and fast as they are today. I think people get confused with the rules change story. There's a lot let of 1x1 play since the rules changed.

    Plus when of the reason why Stern said he changed the rules was because he wanted to open up the game and scoring..... the game was a LOT more high flying and exciting back in the 80s. There are sooo many crappy fouls called today that the action never really gets going.
    There's a contradiction/confusion there. The game was way faster and exciting in the 80s because there was a lot less contact, not because they'd just them punk each other.

    If it wasn't for the rules change, you'd have the same grind out, shove and grab them, 1 player dribbling the ball 20 seconds at the top of the key and then going for a clearout, type of game you had in the 90s, early 00s - not the game you had in the 80s.

  17. #142
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    The rules this entire conversation is circling around and the one you've identified and been arguing since page 1 of this thread...
    Sure, I've posted part of them. Other parts I will post as soon as Cry Havoc/War Lord accept my bet.

    I can't post the entire rule book. What would be the purpose. Not sure if I understand your question.

    Your logic makes sence, but it doesn't hold up to the stats.

    http://www.nba.com/2009/news/feature...idge.defenses/
    Hmm, yes it does. As I say - Free-flowing offense is now the norm - more like the 80s, less like the 90s.

  18. #143
    Veteran Tmac&Luther's Avatar
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    Yeah, but then again they weren't as big and fast as they are today. I think people get confused with the rules change story. There's a lot let of 1x1 play since the rules changed.
    There were PLENTY of athletes back in the 80s, what are you talking about. There were a load of more quality bigs back in those days as well so size and athleticism wasn't a issue. And there isn't alot less 1x1 play today...do you even watch the NBA today or did you even watch it back in the day? The overall skill set of players have dropped dramatically. The supposed best big man today (Howard) doesn't even have legit go to post moves. Howard would be average at best back in the day when you had bigs like Ewing, Robinson, Olajuwan, and O'Neil who were ALL SKILLED UP.....because they had to be.


    There's a contradiction/confusion there. The game was way faster and exciting in the 80s because there was a lot less contact, not because they'd just them punk each other.
    There was alot less contact, because players were allowed to enforce and hand out their own justice on the court......not be awarded foul shots for any damn bull ticky tack contact and flopping.

    If it wasn't for the rules change, you'd have the same grind out, shove and grab them, 1 player dribbling the ball 20 seconds at the top of the key and then going for a clearout, type of game you had in the late 90s, early 00s - not the game you had in the 80s.
    Yeah, that's why all the games back then were grind it out, shove and grab back in the day.....oh wait they weren't Go back and pull up some of the boxscores from the early to mid nineties...scoring was through the roof.

  19. #144
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    Hmm, yes it does. As I say - Free-flowing offense is now the norm - more like the 80s, less like the 90s.

    Then why all the rule changes in the 90's to make it extremely hard to play physical defense? Doesn't seem to be consistent with their desire for more offense -- according to your logic.

  20. #145
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    There were PLENTY of athletes back in the 80s, what are you talking about. There were a load of more quality bigs back in those days as well so size and athleticism wasn't a issue. And there isn't alot less 1x1 play today...do you even watch the NBA today or did you even watch it back in the day? The overall skill set of players have dropped dramatically. The supposed best big man today (Howard) doesn't even have go to post moves.

    That's what I was thinking.

    Would Howard even seem that freakishly athletic if the NBA still had Olajuwon, D.Rob, and Ewing?

  21. #146
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    scoring went down in the late 90's because all the great players started retiring and everyone in the league sucked in comparison.

    the rules we have today are designed to make lesser quality players look good because they can get fouled all the time. consequently you don't have to be as good as you did during the 80's and 90's to have success. So it doesn't happen.

  22. #147
    🏆🏆🏆🏆🏆 ElNono's Avatar
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    Sure, I've posted part of them. Other parts I will post as soon as Cry Havoc/War Lord accept my bet.
    Somebody already posted the relevant rules in this thread. Mind you, it wasn't you.

    I can't post the entire rule book. What would be the purpose. Not sure if I understand your question.
    I didn't ask any questions. Furthermore, I wasn't even addressing my post to you at all. Do you read 'mogrovejo' in my original post?

    Now, I completely understand why you would be so quick to answer my post. As a matter of fact, most everyone reading this thread would. But that says a lot more about you, than it does about the subject at hand...

  23. #148
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    There were PLENTY of athletes back in the 80s, what are you talking about. There were a load of more quality bigs back in those days as well so size and athleticism wasn't a issue. And there isn't alot less 1x1 play today...do you even watch the NBA today or did you even watch it back in the day? The overall skill set of players have dropped dramatically. The supposed best big man today (Howard) doesn't even have legit go to post moves. Howard would be average at best back in the day when you had bigs like Ewing, Robinson, Olajuwan, and O'Neil who were ALL SKILLED UP.....because they had to be.


    There was alot less contact, because players were allowed to enforce and hand out their own justice on the court......not be awarded foul shots for any damn bull ticky tack contact and flopping.


    Yeah, that's why all the games back then were grind it out, shove and grab back in the day.....oh wait they weren't Go back and pull up some of the boxscores from the early to mid nineties...scoring was through the roof.
    You can't mix the 80s with the 90s post Pistons, the Riley's Knicks, etc. Two very different styles of basketball, in fact they were opposite. It seems your mixing both and that just doesn't make sense at all.

    There have been lots of rules changes through the last 30 years or so. Some of them are rarely talked about but affected the game - for example, the 5 seconds rule was a big factor in bringing down the importance of the low post game and yet you didn't even mention it.

    It's a mistake to look for some kind of linear transposition from the rules changes to the game. It didn't happened like that. First, there were rules which were changed but the change wasn't really enforced for many years.

    For example, hand-checking was disallowed in the late 70s - which contributed to the explosion of scoring in the 80s. Then the zone defenses were eliminated with the illegal defence rule - and teams started using the "disallowed" hand-checking more and more. The Pistons with Daly were specially adept of using their hands a lot and their success lead to a change on the way teams were build and eventually to a change in game style that culminated with the Knicks with Riley.

    That was a change in philosophy whose primary cause was a previous change in rules. The scoring dropped dramatically - to the point that the league did that silly shorter 3 point line thing. The games get really ugly because on average the players were bigger and faster, able to recover more ground in the same time. Then the league altered all the rules in 2002 (radically outlawing any kind of hand-checking) - but not all of those changes were immediately enforced on the court. A few years later they made a clarification and referees started enforcing the rules - I think it was in 2005 when all the scoring from guards, especially dribble drive guards like Wade, Kobe, etc. exploded. Since then, fouls like those we see on this video are called 99% of the time.

    Anyway: zone defenses (limited by the 3 seconds rule) + strict rules against hand-checking lead to a huge difference in style. You see more player+ball movement in NBA half-courts now than in any other era.

    Your middle paragraph is just nonsense, btw. That's a myth. Yeah, the league was less strict punishing fights and hard fouls, but it wasn't like that.

  24. #149
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    Somebody already posted the relevant rules in this thread. Mind you, it wasn't you.


    Are you sure? Are you sure others posted rules and I didn't?

  25. #150
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    Cry Havoc/War Lord, still waiting for your answers. Sig bet or not? Are you going to man up and accept the bet?

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