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  1. #76
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Wow...

    I see that went right over your head.

    The solution is to enforce the regulations already in place. Not make more. If inspectors can be "paid off," then what what makes you think more regulations will help?

    If anything, the penalty for such crimes need to be increased to the point it will happen less.
    No, it didn't go over my head, I just chose to ignore the logical inconsistencies in your argument.

    "government inspectors can be bribed, so why have gov't inspectors for mine safety?"
    "brakes can fail, so why have them in a car?"
    "lifeboats can sink, so why bother putting them on cruiseships?"
    "sneezegaurds can fail, so why bother with putting them over the buffet table?"
    "cutoff valves on underwater drilling rigs can fail, so why bother putting them there to begin with"?

    I am not arguing per se for more regulation, but I would like the rules we have to be enforced a bit more strictly. My understanding is that current regulation appears sufficient, but that it wasn't enforced as it probably should have been to prevent the accident.

    If some new mine safety regulation would have a fair chance at preventing deaths, I would be for that howeverm, if it were not too unreasonable.

    I would also note that the investigation into bribery is in the very beginning stages apparently. There is no data yet to say one way or another if there actually was any bribery.

  2. #77
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Still waiting on Darrin to explain this one. I have asked you 3 times to explain this, but haven't got an answer.

    Is it because you don't know what this fact means?

    RG would hate to know how much oil seeps naturally each year.

    As much as two Exxon Valdez' worth each year just in the Gulf of Mexico.
    What exactly are you trying to say here? I don't understand. Please enlighten me.

    What does this fact mean?

    I think it means that Darrin gets his talking points from Fox news, and doesn't really do his own thinking about what those talking points mean, because anyone who does more than a few seconds worth of thinking about this statistic realizes it is pretty ed.

    Since Darrin chose to regurgitate that, I would say that is prima facia evidence of a lack of any such thinking on Darrin's part.

  3. #78
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    Gulf Oil Spill Is Bad, but How Bad?

    http://www.nytimes.com/2010/05/04/us...er=rss&emc=rss


    WASHINGTON — The oil spill in the Gulf of Mexico is bad — no one would dispute it. But just how bad?

    Some experts have been quick to predict apocalypse, painting grim pictures of 1,000 miles of irreplaceable wetlands and beaches at risk, fisheries damaged for seasons, fragile species wiped out and a region and an industry economically crippled for years.

    President Obama has called the spill “a potentially unprecedented environmental disaster.” And some scientists have suggested that the oil might hitch a ride on the loop current in the gulf, bringing havoc to the Atlantic Coast.

    Yet the Deepwater Horizon blowout is not unprecedented, nor is it yet among the worst oil accidents in history. And its ultimate impact will depend on a long list of interlinked variables, including the weather, ocean currents, the properties of the oil involved and the success or failure of the frantic efforts to stanch the flow and remediate its effects.

    As one expert put it, this is the first inning of a nine-inning game. No one knows the final score.

    The ruptured well, currently pouring an estimated 210,000 gallons of oil a day into the gulf, could flow for years and still not begin to approach the 36 billion gallons of oil spilled by retreating Iraqi forces when they left Kuwait in 1991. It is not yet close to the magnitude of the Ixtoc I blowout in the Bay of Campeche in Mexico in 1979, which spilled an estimated 140 million gallons of crude before the gusher could be stopped.

    And it will have to get much worse before it approaches the impact of the Exxon Valdez accident of 1989, which contaminated 1,300 miles of largely untouched shoreline and killed tens of thousands of seabirds, otters and seals along with 250 eagles and 22 killer whales.

    No one, not even the oil industry’s most fervent apologists, is making light of this accident. The contaminated area of the gulf continues to spread, and oil has been found in some of the fragile marshes at the tip of Louisiana. The beaches and coral reefs of the Florida Keys could be hit if the slick is captured by the gulf’s clockwise loop current.

    But on Monday, the wind was pushing the slick in the opposite direction, away from the current. The worst effects of the spill have yet to be felt. And if efforts to contain the oil are even partly successful and the weather cooperates, the worst could be avoided.

    “Right now what people are fearing has not materialized,” said Edward B. Overton, professor emeritus of environmental science at Louisiana State University and an expert on oil spills. “People have the idea of an Exxon Valdez, with a gunky, smelly black tide looming over the horizon waiting to wash ashore. I do not anticipate this will happen down here unless things get a lot worse.”

    Dr. Overton said he was hopeful that efforts by BP to place containment structures over the leaking parts of the well will succeed, although he said it was a difficult task that could actually make things worse by damaging undersea pipes.

    Other experts said that while the potential for catastrophe remained, there were reasons to remain guardedly optimistic.

    “The sky is not falling,” said Quenton R. Dokken, a marine biologist and the executive director of the Gulf of Mexico Foundation, a conservation group in Corpus Christi, Tex. “We’ve certainly stepped in a hole and we’re going to have to work ourselves out of it, but it isn’t the end of the Gulf of Mexico.”

    Engineers said the type of oil pouring out is lighter than the heavy crude spilled by the Exxon Valdez, evaporates more quickly and is easier to burn. It also appears to respond to the use of dispersants, which break up globs of oil and help them sink. The oil is still capable of significant damage, particularly when it is churned up with water and forms a sort of mousse that floats and can travel long distances.

    Jacqueline Savitz, a senior scientist at Oceana, a nonprofit environmental group, said that much of the damage was already taking place far offshore and out of sight of surveillance aircraft and research vessels.

    “Some people are saying, It hasn’t gotten to shore yet so it’s all good,” she said. “But a lot of animals live in the ocean, and a spill like this becomes bad for marine life as soon as it hits the water. You have endangered sea turtles, the larvae of bluefin tuna, shrimp and crabs and oysters, grouper. A lot of these are already being affected and have been for 10 days. We’re waiting to see how bad it is at the shore, but we may never fully understand the full impacts on ocean life.”

    The economic impact is as uncertain as the environmental damage. With several million gallons of medium crude in the water already, some experts are predicting wide economic harm. Experts at the Harte Research Ins ute for Gulf of Mexico Studies in Corpus Christi, for example, estimated that as much as $1.6 billion of annual economic activity and services — including effects on tourism, fishing and even less tangible services like the storm protection provided by wetlands — could be at risk.

    “And that’s really only the tip of the iceberg,” said David Yoskowitz, who holds the endowed chair for socioeconomics at the ins ute. “It’s still early in the game, and there’s a lot of potential downstream impacts, a lot of multiplier impacts.”

    But much of this damage could be avoided if the various tactics employed by BP and government technicians pay off in the coming days. The winds are dying down and the seas are calming, allowing for renewed skimming operations and possible new controlled burns of oil on the surface. BP technicians are trying to inject dispersants deep below the surface, which could reduce the impact on aquatic life. Winds and currents could move the globs of emulsified oil away from coastal s fish breeding grounds.

    The gulf is not a pristine environment and has survived both chronic and acute pollution problems before. Thousands of gallons of oil flow into the gulf from natural undersea well seeps every day, engineers say, and the scores of refineries and chemical plants that line the shore from Mexico to Mississippi pour untold volumes of pollutants into the water.

    After the Ixtoc spill 31 years ago, the second-largest oil release in history, the gulf rebounded. Within three years, there was little visible trace of the spill off the Mexican coast, which was compounded by a tanker accident in the gulf a few months later that released 2.6 million additional gallons, experts said.

    “The gulf is tremendously resilient,” said Dr. Dokken, the marine biologist. “But we’ve always got to ask ourselves how long can we keep heaping these insults on the gulf and having it bounce back. As a scientist, I have to say I just don’t know.”



    Leslie Kaufman contributed reporting from New Orleans.


  4. #79
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Finally.

    Sooooo this spill isn't anything to worry about?

    It would help me understand what you are trying to say if you would actually come out and spell it out.

    we’ve always got to ask ourselves how long can we keep heaping these insults on the gulf and having it bounce back.
    Some of the fish popultions killed in the Valdez spill never came back. Entire fishing industries in the area were wiped out.

    Some natural seepage is normal, and absorbed easily by the environment. That isn't questioned by anybody.

    But using that fact to somehow imply that dumping massive amounts of petroleum into the environment in concentrations and amounts hundreds of times larger than what naturally occurs is ed.

    You are ed for implying that.

    How many spills are safe, Darrin? Just how much damage can we do and have everything bounce back to normal?

    The implication that "we have always polluted before and never really had anything truly catastrophic happen" is not only ed, but dangerously ed.

    You only have to be wrong once, and then the entire strategy of not being concerned with damage to the environment looks really bad.

    "I've put the revolver to my head and pulled the trigger a few times, and nothing happened. Some hysterical idiot tried to tell me there is a bullet in the gun, but since nothing happened, I'll keep pulling the trigger to win money from bets."

    Prudent risk management would be to look for other ways of making money than Russian roulette.

    If you think this analogy is bad, answer these questions conclusively Darrin:

    How many spills are safe, Darrin? Just how much damage can we do and have everything bounce back to normal?

    If you can't answer them, then your implied argument here is total bull , and dangerous bull to boot.

  5. #80
    Veteran DarrinS's Avatar
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    But using that fact to somehow imply that dumping massive amounts of petroleum into the environment in concentrations and amounts hundreds of times larger than what naturally occurs is ed.

    You are ed for implying that.

    How many spills are safe, Darrin? Just how much damage can we do and have everything bounce back to normal?

    The implication that "we have always polluted before and never really had anything truly catastrophic happen" is not only ed, but dangerously ed.

    Damn, you really went all boutons on me.

    I'm just not willing to say that this spill is the end of the world, that's all. A much worse spill in the 70's was largely cleared up in a few years time (according to that article).


    After the Ixtoc spill 31 years ago, the second-largest oil release in history, the gulf rebounded. Within three years, there was little visible trace of the spill off the Mexican coast, which was compounded by a tanker accident in the gulf a few months later that released 2.6 million additional gallons, experts said.

  6. #81
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    No, it didn't go over my head, I just chose to ignore the logical inconsistencies in your argument.

    "government inspectors can be bribed, so why have gov't inspectors for mine safety?"
    Are you being ignorant or just making things up? You read into what I say incorrectly. Like I said. It went over your head.

    I am saying whoult good will more regulations do is the current system is corrupt. The system has to be fixed first.
    "brakes can fail, so why have them in a car?"
    "lifeboats can sink, so why bother putting them on cruiseships?"
    "sneezegaurds can fail, so why bother with putting them over the buffet table?"
    "cutoff valves on underwater drilling rigs can fail, so why bother putting them there to begin with"?
    Wow... You usually aren't such a blabbering idiot...
    I am not arguing per se for more regulation, but I would like the rules we have to be enforced a bit more strictly.
    Good...

    And to do so, they have to be reasonable rules. When stupid things are to be enforced, when some stupid rules start getting ignored, so do the important ones. When non-experts on the subject are deciding which ones are OK to ignore and which ones aren't, we have problems. We need rules that make sense, and are 100% enforced.
    My understanding is that current regulation appears sufficient, but that it wasn't enforced as it probably should have been to prevent the accident.
    That was my point, but I don't know yet that it would have prevented an accident. Not everything is foreseeable.
    If some new mine safety regulation would have a fair chance at preventing deaths, I would be for that howeverm, if it were not too unreasonable.
    "IF!" is a small word with a big meaning. Tell me. What do you think would have prevented this accident, other than not mining?
    I would also note that the investigation into bribery is in the very beginning stages apparently. There is no data yet to say one way or another if there actually was any bribery.
    I agree. For the coal mine accident, they are looking into all aspects of the possible failure, looking to assign blame. They haven't yet. Until I see something more relevant, I am under the assumption this was not a preventable accident.

    This accident at the oil rig, I will say should have never happened. Engineering wise, this has few unseen cir stances to deal with. Anyone know yet why the fire started to begin with? Was it set intentionally maybe? An act of sabotage is the only thing that makes sense to me so far.

  7. #82
    Veteran Wild Cobra's Avatar
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    Is it because you don't know what this fact means?
    RG would hate to know how much oil seeps naturally each year.

    As much as two Exxon Valdez' worth each year just in the Gulf of Mexico.
    What exactly are you trying to say here? I don't understand. Please enlighten me.

    What does this fact mean?
    I know what he's talking about, and it is a weak case. Darrin... You let us down with that one.

    Oil does naturally seep out of the ocean floor, as does methane. However, the rate is low enough, the ocean sea life that can metabolize it, does consume most of it. I It is actually healthy for the ocean, and sea life flourished with a small amount of seepage. The world wide rate is probable greater than this spill, but I don't have numbers. It is simply dilute enough not to be a problem. I would doubt that 2 x Exxon seeps into the gulf, but it could be. At a slow enough rate over a large enough area, it can be consumed. I would be curious to see this data myself.

    There are times however when a natural oil sheen is seen on the southern California coast from this. Correct me if I'm wrong, there are no oil rigs out there. The biological component cannot quite metabolize it all, at all times.

    Think of it like trace elements that are necessary for our life, but toxic in any larger quan ies.

    You can also think of it like Carbon Dioxide in the air. We have around 0.039% in the air, and it is necessary for life to thrive. However, is we had about a 10% mix, most air oxygen breathing life would not exist. In small quan ies, it is part of the ocean nutrients. It's the concentration that kills life.
    Last edited by Wild Cobra; 05-05-2010 at 11:49 AM.

  8. #83
    Believe. admiralsnackbar's Avatar
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    It's the concentration that kills life.
    Not to mention where the concentration occurs. There are organisms that can metabolize and break-down seepage, but they exist where the seepage does: at the bottom of the ocean. Spills like these not only move the buffet to where not only are there no diners, but to places where diners haven't adapted to exist.

  9. #84
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    AP report on this corporate black fouling the bottom of the Gulf:

    http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/Dee...ing_havoc.html

    The corps are ing up us, the water, the land, the air, the planet.

    the "dispersants" are proprietary secrets, not event the govt is allowed to find out what this is, so corporate profits remain protected, just like the mysterious they pump down fracking holes and into groundwater and aquifers.

    I assume the disperants are extremely aggressive, concentrated solvents to be able to dissolve up this black corporate even, and also dissolve any naturals oils in plant and animal life.

  10. #85
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    BP should be banned from operating in US lands and waters. Bankrupt the ers, to "encourage the others".

    BP is "too oily slimy to trust". BP's "green" PR is a total lie, has been forever.

  11. #86
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    Damn, you really went all boutons on me.

    I'm just not willing to say that this spill is the end of the world, that's all. A much worse spill in the 70's was largely cleared up in a few years time (according to that article).
    Would it have killed you to actually spell that out?

    One spill is not the end of the world, and I can accept and agree with that.

    One large spill can easily wipe out fish populations in some areas permanently, though. That is something that the Valdez spill taught us.

    I have been unable to find any long-term studies of the area off the coast of Mexico showing the ultimate damage done to that locality from the Ixtoc spill.

    That particular spill occured from from US shores, and most of the studies that I could find concerning the impact were rather limited, short-term studies.

    What I have seen regarding this particular spill is that the damage to Louisiana's fishing industry has a good possibility of being catastrophic.

    We have little data as to:

    How much damage we can do with spills and still have viable fishing industries.
    What long term property value impact this will have.
    What long-term tourism value impact spills would have.

    We are drilling more wells, farther offshore, and deeper than we ever have. This has geometrically increased our risks of spills.

    We don't really know how long it ultimately takes for localities to fully recover from massive spills like this. Given that the area affected by the Exxon-Valdez spill is still recovering decades later, we have some fair idea.

    If it takes 50 years to recover from a nasty spill and they happen once every 10 years, you have the potential for some real, genuine, irreversable collapse.

    Modern wells are safer than in the past by some measure, but there are vastly more of them than there have been in the past, resulting in a pretty high possibility you have more overall risk.

    The question is:

    How do we manage that risk?

  12. #87
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    Obama biggest recipient of BP cash


    While the BP oil geyser pumps millions of gallons of petroleum into the Gulf of Mexico, President Barack Obama and members of Congress may have to answer for the millions in campaign contributions they’ve taken from the oil and gas giant over the years.

    BP and its employees have given more than $3.5 million to federal candidates over the past 20 years, with the largest chunk of their money going to Obama, according to the Center for Responsive Politics. Donations come from a mix of employees and the company’s political action committees — $2.89 million flowed to campaigns from BP-related PACs and about $638,000 came from individuals.

    During his time in the Senate and while running for president, Obama received a total of $77,051 from the oil giant and is the top recipient of BP PAC and individual money over the past 20 years, according to financial disclosure records.

    Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories...#ixzz0nAE1fbJv


    The Interior Department exempted BP's calamitous Gulf of Mexico drilling operation from a detailed environmental impact analysis last year, according to government do ents, after three reviews of the area concluded that a massive oil spill was unlikely.
    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?hpid=topnews

    ----

    Politicians keep failing.

    And yet the socialists keep saying we should give them more power.

  13. #88
    Believe. admiralsnackbar's Avatar
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    And then there are the numbnuts who think we should do nothing.

  14. #89
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    "Politicians keep failing."

    Corps/capitalists keep buying politicians, even the ones teabaggers might be lucky enough to elect.

    and yet the conservatives keep saying we should not regulate corps and capitalists

    (Even Hank Paulsen is saying today in Congress that fanny/freddy were under-/un-regulated).

  15. #90
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    I know what he's talking about, and it is a weak case. Darrin... You let us down with that one.

    Oil does naturally seep out of the ocean floor, as does methane. However, the rate is low enough, the ocean sea life that can metabolize it, does consume most of it. I It is actually healthy for the ocean, and sea life flourished with a small amount of seepage. The world wide rate is probable greater than this spill, but I don't have numbers. It is simply dilute enough not to be a problem. I would doubt that 2 x Exxon seeps into the gulf, but it could be. At a slow enough rate over a large enough area, it can be consumed. I would be curious to see this data myself.

    There are times however when a natural oil sheen is seen on the southern California coast from this. Correct me if I'm wrong, there are no oil rigs out there. The biological component cannot quite metabolize it all, at all times.

    Think of it like trace elements that are necessary for our life, but toxic in any larger quan ies.

    You can also think of it like Carbon Dioxide in the air. We have around 0.039% in the air, and it is necessary for life to thrive. However, is we had about a 10% mix, most air oxygen breathing life would not exist. In small quan ies, it is part of the ocean nutrients. It's the concentration that kills life.
    (feints)

  16. #91
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    And yet the socialists keep saying we should give them more power.
    Yup, all those dirty liberals trying to give the executive more power...

    (Ahem warrantless wiretapping, military commissions, enhanced interrogation, state secrets exemptions, arguing about whether miranda rights should be read to American citizens cough cough)

  17. #92
    Believe. admiralsnackbar's Avatar
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    Yup, all those dirty liberals trying to give the executive more power...

    (Ahem warrantless wiretapping, military commissions, enhanced interrogation, state secrets exemptions, arguing about whether miranda rights should be read to American citizens cough cough)
    Don't you see it's regulation that flirts with fascism? The Orwellian state was much less threatening.

  18. #93
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    Yup, all those dirty liberals trying to give the executive more power...

    (Ahem warrantless wiretapping, military commissions, enhanced interrogation, state secrets exemptions, arguing about whether miranda rights should be read to American citizens cough cough)
    All those are examples of statist decisions. I'm not the hypocrite who doesn't like measures that propel the expansion of the power and scope of the government and politicians when they come from one party but defends it when they come from another party.

    Are you?

  19. #94
    Believe. admiralsnackbar's Avatar
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    All those are examples of statist decisions. I'm not the hypocrite who doesn't like measures that propel the expansion of the power and scope of the government and politicians when they come from one party but defends it when they come from another party.

    Are you?
    Is this still in reference to regulation? Puta, guey... me estas matando

  20. #95
    Cogito Ergo Sum LnGrrrR's Avatar
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    All those are examples of statist decisions. I'm not the hypocrite who doesn't like measures that propel the expansion of the power and scope of the government and politicians when they come from one party but defends it when they come from another party.

    Are you?
    I don't quite see how those are "statist" decisions when they're all used explicitly by the federal government.

    And if you see me being hypocritical, feel free to call it out. I've long stated I'm very libertarian regarding civil rights, and trend liberal on economics.

  21. #96
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    I don't quite see how those are "statist" decisions when they're all used explicitly by the federal government.
    It's not "statist" in that sense. I'm all for state rights. I abhor statism though and the pinnacle of statism in the US is the federal government (hence why I'm for state rights - decentralization of power helps to promote liberty).

    Statism (or etatism) is an ideology advocating the use of states to achieve goals, both economic and social. Economic statism, for instance, promotes the view that the state has a major and legitimate role in directing the economy, either directly through state-owned enterprises and other types of machinery of government, or indirectly through economic planning.[1][2]

    The term statism is sometimes used to refer to state capitalism or highly-regulated market economies with large amounts of government intervention. It is also used to refer to state socialism or co-operative economic systems that use the state, through nationalization, as a means of running industry.


    Statism reached its highest point in the centrally planned fascist (Nazi Germany) and communist (Soviet Union) countries, but exists in varying degrees in every country in the world.[5]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statism

    And if you see me being hypocritical, feel free to call it out. I've long stated I'm very libertarian regarding civil rights, and trend liberal on economics.
    I just made a question. I'm sure I don't support/oppose laws that share the same underlying philosophy because of the political party that advocates them. I defend the supreme value of individual liberty against all its enemies and obstacles.

  22. #97
    I am that guy RandomGuy's Avatar
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    - decentralization of power helps to promote liberty).
    ...unless of course you were of african decent living in the south under Jim Crow laws.

    or under the political machines of the early 1900's...

    Care to qualify that a bit more?

  23. #98
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    ...unless of course you were of african decent living in the south under Jim Crow laws.

    or under the political machines of the early 1900's...

    Care to qualify that a bit more?
    A bit yeah, but not a lot. It's basically the principle of subsidiarity, which is part of the Western philosophy since Aquinas, with his concepts of city, province and empire. (but can be traced back to Aristotle).

    Tocqueville, Montesquieu, Locke, Jefferson and pretty much every one of the Founding Fathers addressed this issue. The Federalist and the Anti-Federalist papers address this issue very well. Even the Federalists were extremely wary of the centralization of power - see papers #45 and #51 from Madison, for example.

    Basically, it's more difficult to abuse the power if the authority t authority should be exercised at the lowest necessary level and as close to the people as possible. This gives the individual more protections against abuses of authority, it's way more difficult to for the authority agents to coerce individuals and makes it easier to prevent/overrun abuses of power. Concentration of power is dangerous because it's way more difficult for the individual to survive against potential abuses of power and to fight back. If nobody is able to hold a big amount of power in his own hands, the perils coming from the abuse of that power are less dangerous. When the power is centralized at the top, individuals become very small things down there, easy to abuse. Centralized power leads to absolutism and despotism.

    Intermediate powers - formal ones like the states governments in the US or the nobility in the middle-age Europe or informal ones like Churches/clergy - are vital in preventing the surge of despotism. The American Republic was built around this concept (this is why guys like Woodrow Wilson distrusted the American cons utional system so much and loved the centralist Prussia, for example).

    The fact that every level of power can be misused, even the local ones, doesn't imply centralization is a better alternative. There's an excellent counter-argument in To Kill a Mockingbird re: the Jim Crow laws point: how successful would Hitler be if he was born in Alabama? Ah, or in The Plot Against America from Roth - what's the excuse Lindbergh uses to explain to the nazi powers why it's being so difficult to implement their program in America?

    Actually, the pro-slavery states tended to be pro-central government more than the anti-slavery states.

  24. #99
    Alleged Michigander ChumpDumper's Avatar
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    Read more: http://www.politico.com/news/stories...#ixzz0nAE1fbJv




    http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...l?hpid=topnews

    ----

    Politicians keep failing.

    And yet the socialists keep saying we should give them more power.
    So you are upset that BP was not more stringently regulated by the government.

    Nice.

    "UL would have prevented this."

  25. #100
    e^(i*pi) + 1 = 0 MannyIsGod's Avatar
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    Basically, it's more difficult to abuse the power if the authority t authority should be exercised at the lowest necessary level and as close to the people as possible.
    Decentralization of power sounds great until you factor in that its not going to the people when you remove it from the state but rather to the corporations.

    If I have to choose between corporations and the Federal government then I pick the feds each and every time.

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