Does this mean that I am a neocon?

[Drachen]

I feel very dirty, I had read everything of interest on cnn.com, so I decided to go to foxnews.com for a good laugh and there on the front page was a story that had a headline that I couldn't believe. I read the story and completely agree with the view being given by FOX FREAKIN NEWS. This is the culmination of a disturbing trend where I have found myself, on occasion, agreeing with those on the right on this board, its got me a little scared. Here is the article:

Link to my shame

Administrators at a California high school sent five students home on Wednesday after they refused to remove their American flag T-shirts and bandannas -- garments the school officials deemed "incendiary" on Cinco de Mayo.


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Administrators at a California high school sent five students home on Wednesday after they refused to remove their American flag T-shirts and bandannas -- garments the school officials deemed "incendiary" on Cinco de Mayo.

The five teens were sitting at a table outside Live Oak High School in Morgan Hill, Calif., on Wednesday morning when Assistant Principal Miguel Rodriguez asked two of them to remove their American flag bandannas, the Morgan Hill Times reported. The boys told the newspaper they complied, but were asked to accompany Rodriguez to the principal's office.

The five students -- Daniel Galli, Austin Carvalho, Matt Dariano, Dominic Maciel and Clayton Howard -- were then told they must turn their T-shirts inside-out or be sent home, though it would not be considered a suspension. Rodriguez told the students he did not want any fights to break out between Mexican-American students celebrating their heritage and those wearing American flags.

"They said we were starting a fight," Dariano told the newspaper. "We were fuel to the fire."

The boys told Rodriguez and Principal Nick Boden that turning their shirts inside-out was disrespectful, so their parents decided to take them home, the newspaper reports.

"I just couldn't believe it," Julie erstrom, Maciel's mother, told the newspaper. "I'm an open-minded parent, but it's got to be on both sides. It can't be five kids singled out."

Galli told NBC Bay Area, "They said we could wear it on any other day, but today is sensitive to Mexican-Americans because it's supposed to be their holiday so we were not allowed to wear it."

In a statement released on Wednesday, the Morgan Hill Unified School District said it did not agree with the school's actions.

"In an attempt to foster a spirit of cultural awareness and maintain a safe and supportive school environment, the Live Oak High School administration took certain actions earlier today," the statement read. "The district does not concur with the Live Oak High School administration's interpretation of either board or district policy related to these actions."

Attempts to reach school officials early Thursday were not successful. A secretary told the Morgan Hill Times that Boden and Rodriguez were unavailable for comment on Wednesday.

According to its website, Live Oak High School is a 1,300-student ins ution in the southern part of Santa Clara County, with most students residing in the nearby cities of Morgan Hill and San Jose.

"The student population reflects the rich ethnic and socioeconomic diversity of the community," the website reads.

More than 100 students were spotted wearing the colors of the Mexican flag -- red, white and green -- as they left school, including some who had the flag painted on their faces or arms, the Morgan Hill times reported.

While bandannas of any color are banned at the school, its dress code policy does not contain references to American flags.

"However, any clothing or decoration which detracts from the learning environment is prohibited," the policy reads. "The school has the right to request that any student dressing inappropriately for school will change into other clothes, be sent home to change, and/or be subject to disciplinary action."

Freshman Laura Ponce, who had a Mexican flag painted on her face and chest, told the Morgan Hill Times that Cinco de Mayo is the "only day" Mexican-American students can show their national pride.

"There was a lot of drama going on today," Ponce told the newspaper.

Some other Mexican-American students reportedly said their flags were taken away or asked to be put away, but no other students were sent home on Wednesday.

Lis Wiehl, a former federal prosecutor and a Fox News legal analyst, said the incident appears to a "blatant" violation of the students' First Amendment right to free speech. She noted that inciting violence is an exception to a First Amendment legal defense, but Wiehl said she saw no indications that the students provoked anyone.

"Unless I'm missing something, this seems like a blatant violation of the First Amendment," said Wiehl, adding that uniforms are not required at the public school. "And they're wearing, of all horrific things, the American flag."




BTW, my forword is more tounge-in-cheek than anything, I know I am center-left and that I will, on occasion, find myself agreeing and disagreeing with both sides.

[LnGrrrR]

Screw those school administrators.

This is America. There's nothing insensitive about wearing flag-related paraphernalia. (Well... I mean according to the flag code there's some debate, but that's beside the point here lol.)

America is MULTICULTURAL. To suggest that celebrating one culture denigrates another is re ed logic at best. That's like saying because I'm not religious, I'm offending Christians.

Just re ed. As is that Freshman who said that Cinco de Mayo is the "only day" they can celebrate. GMAFB.

[Drachen]

Screw those school administrators.

This is America. There's nothing insensitive about wearing flag-related paraphernalia. (Well... I mean according to the flag code there's some debate, but that's beside the point here lol.)

America is MULTICULTURAL. To suggest that celebrating one culture denigrates another is re ed logic at best. That's like saying because I'm not religious, I'm offending Christians.

Just re ed. As is that Freshman who said that Cinco de Mayo is the "only day" they can celebrate. GMAFB.

I will take that last part you spoke of a step further, she was talking about the "only day" to show her national pride. So since this is the only nation she cares to show pride in . . . .

Also to the school admins, do they mandate that all students must wear green on St. Patty's day? If a student shows up wearing orange, are they sent home?

[LnGrrrR]

I will take that last part you spoke of a step further, she was talking about the "only day" to show her national pride. So since this is the only nation she cares to show pride in . . . .

Also to the school admins, do they mandate that all students must wear green on St. Patty's day? If a student shows up wearing orange, are they sent home?

I think that all students should have to speak with their best Irish accent, just in case any Irish people get offended by normal accents.

I knew a few dumbass liberal kids back in high school... "America is evil! We go to war! We bomb children!"

If you hate America so much, GTFO.

I'm totally cool with disliking certain laws, regulations and various other aspects of the US. Vigorous debate is healthy. But if you don't like our country... why don't you leave? Feel free.

[admiralsnackbar]

I will take that last part you spoke of a step further, she was talking about the "only day" to show her national pride. So since this is the only nation she cares to show pride in . . . .

Also to the school admins, do they mandate that all students must wear green on St. Patty's day? If a student shows up wearing orange, are they sent home?

Let me just start by saying that I think your position is beyond reproach philosophically.

That said, principals are in the business of maintaining order more than they are in engendering free speech. I couldn't wear my Misfits shirt in PE at military school because my coach was a consecrated evangelical literalist who assumed I was celebrating death by lifting weights in a black shirt with a glow-in-the-dark skull on it. Was he wrong to censor me? yes. Did it ultimately matter? Not really. The shirt inflamed insecurities/aggressions within him, and it was probably for the best I didn't push him to some greater act of censure... say, laps.

By the same token, wearing an US flag on 5 de Mayo, while perfectly acceptable in and of itself, could very easily be taken as a " you" to Latinos. The principal was, thus, probably trying to avert a mess in his/her school by ordering the removal of an (contextually) inflammatory symbol.

I guess I'm saying that on paper, this was a stupid decision on the principal's part, but in context, it was no different than disallowing kids from wearing Misfits shirts (or gang-related sports jerseys). Peacekeeping.

[z0sa]

Political Correctness at its finest.

[Drachen]

Let me just start by saying that I think your position is beyond reproach philosophically.

That said, principals are in the business of maintaining order more than they are in engendering free speech. I couldn't wear my Misfits shirt in PE at military school because my coach was a consecrated evangelical literalist who assumed I was celebrating death by lifting weights in a black shirt with a glow-in-the-dark skull on it. Was he wrong to censor me? yes. Did it ultimately matter? Not really. The shirt inflamed insecurities/aggressions within him, and it was probably for the best I didn't push him to some greater act of censure... say, laps.

By the same token, wearing an US flag on 5 de Mayo, while perfectly acceptable in and of itself, could very easily be taken as a " you" to Latinos. The principal was, thus, probably trying to avert a mess in his/her school by ordering the removal of an (contextually) inflammatory symbol.

I guess I'm saying that on paper, this was a stupid decision on the principal's part, but in context, it was no different than disallowing kids from wearing Misfits shirts (or gang-related sports jerseys). Peacekeeping.

Ok so disallow those showing pride in their nation in order to make comfortable those who are showing pride in not their nation. How about they get over themselves and show pride in whatever they want, while they allow others to show pride in what they want. Does the pricipal send someone home on every other day if they are displaying the colors of a different country?

If the kids started being bags about it, yelling things like "These colors don't run" or "If you like mexico so much GTFO" I would understand punishing those kids FOR THAT. Nothing in the story indicates this, in fact the part where it says they would be sent home, though it wouldn't be counted as a suspension seems to imply (at least to me) that their sole indiscretion was wearing a shirt with a flag on it.

One also has to ask, was the SCHOOL flying the flag, or did they fly the mexican flag that day.

[admiralsnackbar]

If the kids started being bags about it, yelling things like "These colors don't run" or "If you like mexico so much GTFO" I would understand punishing those kids FOR THAT. Nothing in the story indicates this, in fact the part where it says they would be sent home, though it wouldn't be counted as a suspension seems to imply (at least to me) that their sole indiscretion was wearing a shirt with a flag on it.

I guess I would argue that the censorship was effected in order for no disturbance of the kind to even happen.

Do you think kids would be sent home from school for wearing the US flag any other day? Nah, dude... like I said: this was all about maintaining the peace.

[mogrovejo]

It wearing a t-shirt with an American flag is actually something that can threaten the peace in a school, it's pretty obvious there's a problem and where the problem is - not in those who are wearing the T-shirts, certainly.

I prefer to believe the school director just screwed up for no reason.

[admiralsnackbar]

I prefer to believe the school director just screwed up for no reason.

That would certainly fit in with your modus operandi.

[jack sommerset]

LMFAO @ can't wear a USA shirt on Cinco de Mayo!!!!!!!!!

[Drachen]

I guess I would argue that the censorship was effected in order for no disturbance of the kind to even happen.

Do you think kids would be sent home from school for wearing the US flag any other day? Nah, dude... like I said: this was all about maintaining the peace.

As to the first part, if this is the case, then the principal should send home those who are disrupting the every day business of an American school. Not the ones who are carrying on with regular life.

As far as the second part, it will probably (NOW) be inflammatory if anyone is wearing any OTHER flag on any other day. So I guess they will have to be sent home.

[admiralsnackbar]

As to the first part, if this is the case, then the principal should send home those who are disrupting the every day business of an American school. Not the ones who are carrying on with regular life.

As far as the second part, it will probably (NOW) be inflammatory if anyone is wearing any OTHER flag on any other day. So I guess they will have to be sent home.

Fine by me... I'm not defending the hypocrisy or what will come out of it, just saying there's a pragmatic reason it went down the way it did.

[LnGrrrR]

Do you think kids would be sent home from school for wearing the US flag any other day? Nah, dude... like I said: this was all about maintaining the peace.

In the interests of fairness then, one would think that all displays of nationality should be banned in the interest of fairness. Of course, then you'd have people mad they couldn't display the Mexican flag on cinco de mayo.

I'm of the opinion that children should wear what they want, as long as it's not obviously designed to be inflammatory.

[admiralsnackbar]

I'm of the opinion that children should wear what they want, as long as it's not obviously designed to be inflammatory.

I am, too, which is why I said I philosophically agree. At the same time, I can sympathize with a principal who doesn't want any started in loco parentis on a real, practical level.

Do problems upon problems fall out of the reaction? Absolutely. Was it a short-sighted, reactionary policy? Absolutely. Are school policies ever otherwise? Not in my experience. Were it up to principals, kids would all wear uniforms.

[Drachen]

Fine by me... I'm not defending the hypocrisy or what will come out of it, just saying there's a pragmatic reason it went down the way it did.

fair enough, and just to be clear, I am not part of the GTFO crowd. I am however completely confused by the fact that it seems very stupid and self-harmful to continue to choose living in a country that you don't have love for especially when there is one that (it seems) you would prefer to align yourself with.

[Stringer_Bell]

Also to the school admins, do they mandate that all students must wear green on St. Patty's day? If a student shows up wearing orange, are they sent home?

Probably, I doubt they want car bombs going off at lunch!

Freshman Laura Ponce, who had a Mexican flag painted on her face and chest, told the Morgan Hill Times that Cinco de Mayo is the "only day" Mexican-American students can show their national pride.

Mexican-American students? National pride?
1) High schools students are the most idiotic students in the world, confusing the country of their birth with the country of their ancestry. Actually, that's most people that use hyphenated "nationalities."
2) Cinco de Mayo is not even Mexico's Independence Day, which is way more important to people in Mexico.
3) Are these kids aware that the Cinco de Mayo victory, while awesome, wasn't really a victory in the long run?
4) Only kids wearing French flags would be instigating conflict with their dress, not the American flag kids. The latter are just trying to be cool and make a statement.

[Oh, Gee!!]

to answer the OP: yes, it does.

[Spurminator]

Does anyone really think that five friends wearing over-the-top American flag clothing (bandanas?!) on Cinco de Mayo was an accident or coincidence?

There's nothing wrong with there clothing in and of itself. But you'd have a hard time convincing me that the intent was not to be provocative. And high school students do not have first amendment rights to wear clothing that creates distraction or could lead to hostility.

I think the intent was pretty clear. The only thing the school did wrong was to give them the attention they wanted.

But I'd expect them to do the same thing if ten white buddies were gathering together wearing solid white on MLK Day. Nothing wrong with wearing white. But let's be real.

[alchemist]

Seems to me that these kids were out to get a rise from people.

[jack sommerset]

Seems to me that these kids were out to get a rise from people.

Yeah, they are proud to been americans. Freaken troublemakers

[Drachen]

Probably, I doubt they want car bombs going off at lunch!



Mexican-American students? National pride?
1) High schools students are the most idiotic students in the world, confusing the country of their birth with the country of their ancestry. Actually, that's most people that use hyphenated "nationalities."
2) Cinco de Mayo is not even Mexico's Independence Day, which is way more important to people in Mexico.
3) Are these kids aware that the Cinco de Mayo victory, while awesome, wasn't really a victory in the long run?
4) Only kids wearing French flags would be instigating conflict with their dress, not the American flag kids. The latter are just trying to be cool and make a statement.

Ok, I found the first part hilarious.
Secondly, the rest of it is spot on. I would even amend number 4 to say that while I believe these 5 were just trying to be cool high school kids, maybe they weren't. What are the odds that in an American HS that 5 out of 1300 students would wear a shirt that has the Flag on it on any given day. I would say pretty high. The ONLY reason that I don't think this is a coincedence is the fact that they were wearing bandanas too. Either way, who cares.

[admiralsnackbar]

fair enough, and just to be clear, I am not part of the GTFO crowd. I am however completely confused by the fact that it seems very stupid and self-harmful to continue to choose living in a country that you don't have love for especially when there is one that (it seems) you would prefer to align yourself with.

I don't know... I think you were closer to it when you likened the 5 de Mayo to St. Patty's Day -- it isn't about pledging allegiance to a country (as Stringer pointed out, El Dia De Independencia on Sept 16 is more of a Mexican holiday that the Cinco -- which I don't even remember celebrating when I lived in MX) as much as celebrating your ethnic heritage.

[Spurminator]

What are the odds that in an American HS that 5 out of 1300 students would wear a shirt that has the Flag on it on any given day. I would say pretty high.

Five friends at the same table?

[Drachen]

to answer the OP: yes, it does.

Ok, thanks for clarifying. LOL